Bad shots bad habits some need discipline

[hammer4reel]

23 minutes ago, Lunatic said:

Yes I do. Guys always pushed the limit but now they are more successful with it. 

think about new hunters. I’ll give you 3 new guys for 2 days and you teach them how to shoot a stick bow. I’ll take 3 newbies and teach the crossbow. Which group do you thing will have more misses and wounded animals? 
how many guys back then and now went in the woods on very little preparation and practice? Many and you are never changing it. However, today’s lazy guy is more likely to make a good shot with very little practice on his crossbow than could a lazy guy with a stick or even compound. 
yes I do think more animals, percentage wise, were wounded and not recovered then than now because difficulties of getting proficient with the weapon, lack of knowledge and commitment and even difficulty of obtaining necessary information 

I agree a new shooter can more accurately shoot a xbow without practice off a bench .

but I have watched enough try to shoot off hand to know they should be practicing more , because they are no where near as accurate as they should be .

While a crossbow can be used as a cheat sheet , it not going to replace those who actually practice with their weapons .(crossbows included ) 

 

If shots were kept close the success may be better , but since the your next rifle commercials too many think they can shoot well beyond their actual capabilities.

…

 

[Lunatic]

Just now, hammer4reel said:

I agree a new shooter can more accurately shoot a xbow without practice off a bench .

but I have watched enough try to shoot off hand to know they should be practicing more , because they are no where near as accurate as they should be .

While a crossbow can be used as a cheat sheet , it not going to replace those who actually practice with their weapons .(crossbows included ) 

 

If shots were kept close the success may be better , but since the your next rifle commercials too many think they can shoot well beyond their actual capabilities.

…

 

I think it is and always will be new hunters making mistakes or doing things they just don’t know any better. So if you give this group more forgiving weapon you will end up with fewer wounded deer. A new guy trying to kill a deer with his crossbow at 45 yards would push the limit with a compound as well but would have no chance of succeeding. 
We can agree to disagree 

[bucky]

1 hour ago, Deer Tracker Darren said:

Will the art of blood tracking by the hunter be lost? I don't know. Ten years from now will the only way a hunter will find their deer is with a dog. I don't know. Only time will tell.

Sadly, the whole art of hunting will be lost in ten years

[smoking gun]

1 hour ago, Lunatic said:

I think it is and always will be new hunters making mistakes or doing things they just don’t know any better. So if you give this group more forgiving weapon you will end up with fewer wounded deer. A new guy trying to kill a deer with his crossbow at 45 yards would push the limit with a compound as well but would have no chance of succeeding. 
We can agree to disagree 

Its not just a xbow guy or a buckshot guys its even some elitist with the compounds too nowadays.i have a group of friends that jabber alot and some of the crap I hear has me mind boggled.i don't think its much of what we use I think its the mindset in some 

[JFC1]

OK, this is a tough post to put up but I think some of the observations may be helpful

On Wednesday night, after I'd previously welcomed Darren electronically to this site, I had to contact him.

I shot a doe at last light at twenty yards, with crossbow with Muzzy 3-blade 100grains from a stand in a new spot I was hunting for the  first time. There was no EAB pressure, I'd watched her for 15 minutes, she was calm and broadside, and I'm consistently able to place my shots in a target and in deer, taking them without losing them. But I made a bad shot, a liver shot. After sitting an hr, I tracked her very light blood trail and pools of good blood where she rested, and then it petered out. About 9pm i texted Darren. After exiting I was back in woods about 1130PM and I searched till 2:30AM. No luck. Darren came by with Theo in the morning, after a light rain had fallen. Theo was on the deer's trail immediately, and he happily found the animal pretty quickly. So I was happy, like Theo.  But we found no blood trail and she'd traversed an area that'd been flooded in the recent storms and full of downed trees and twisted roses that would have made a grid search very time consuming on a hot day. It was fascinating and gratifying to see the dog at work, along with Darren.

While of course the chest cavity was a no-go, I was able to salvage the back straps, front legs, and say 65% of each hind leg that had been torn lightly at the anus by some sort of canine. Since it was a doe, and then I took another doe on Friday and I'll be patient and choosy while looking at bucks, there was no issue of anxiousness or horn fever here motivating the shot or calling in Darren. There was no trophy. It's just that I made a bad shot for reasons I need to analyze carefully and I didn't want to open my season by losing a deer on my first hunt. Plain and simple. 

I can't be happier about calling in Darren, even if I'm not happy to tell you my screw-up at the origin of this true story. Grid searching would have meant that the meat would have spoiled, and I may never have found the animal. Now I don't carry the karma today of killing a deer by screwing up and then wasting all it's meat. And I got to meet Darren, a dedicated, amazingly knowledgeable, and yet humble guy who I urge all of you to talk to and call on if necessary. He's an amazing person and resource since he, like I imagine all the trackers, consistently sees a cross-section of hunters who've made mistakes or had unexpected things happen to them. I imagine that not-quite-perfect or even bad things can happen with all of us, at some point. In terms of equipment, habits, training, terrain, Rage and its detractors (!) Darren sees hunters at our most vulnerable. I'm sure this ups the no-BS quotient of the stories he hears since the person who calls him in most likely wants to offer up the true story of what happened to increase the odds of getting the deer. 

So I've read, and mostly agree with, the posts about factors like technology, media, hunter over-anxiousness or selfishness, and baiting, I'm writing  simply to attest to the importance of what Darren does, recommend you not hesitate to contact him or another tracker if at all necessary, and that all of us, of course, take the sorts of care the posters describe.

In the meantime, I've replayed it and I've climbed back into the stand to look and think and never repeat this liver shot. I hope that happens. I can't be absolutely positive, but I'll do my best. 

[deadonshot2]

55 minutes ago, JFC1 said:

OK, this is a tough post to put up but I think some of the observations may be helpful

On Wednesday night, after I'd previously welcomed Darren electronically to this site, I had to contact him.

I shot a doe at last light at twenty yards, with crossbow with Muzzy 3-blade 100grains from a stand in a new spot I was hunting for the  first time. There was no EAB pressure, I'd watched her for 15 minutes, she was calm and broadside, and I'm consistently able to place my shots in a target and in deer, taking them without losing them. But I made a bad shot, a liver shot. After sitting an hr, I tracked her very light blood trail and pools of good blood where she rested, and then it petered out. About 9pm i texted Darren. After exiting I was back in woods about 1130PM and I searched till 2:30AM. No luck. Darren came by with Theo in the morning, after a light rain had fallen. Theo was on the deer's trail immediately, and he happily found the animal pretty quickly. So I was happy, like Theo.  But we found no blood trail and she'd traversed an area that'd been flooded in the recent storms and full of downed trees and twisted roses that would have made a grid search very time consuming on a hot day. It was fascinating and gratifying to see the dog at work, along with Darren.

While of course the chest cavity was a no-go, I was able to salvage the back straps, front legs, and say 65% of each hind leg that had been torn lightly at the anus by some sort of canine. Since it was a doe, and then I took another doe on Friday and I'll be patient and choosy while looking at bucks, there was no issue of anxiousness or horn fever here motivating the shot or calling in Darren. There was no trophy. It's just that I made a bad shot for reasons I need to analyze carefully and I didn't want to open my season by losing a deer on my first hunt. Plain and simple. 

I can't be happier about calling in Darren, even if I'm not happy to tell you my screw-up at the origin of this true story. Grid searching would have meant that the meat would have spoiled, and I may never have found the animal. Now I don't carry the karma today of killing a deer by screwing up and then wasting all it's meat. And I got to meet Darren, a dedicated, amazingly knowledgeable, and yet humble guy who I urge all of you to talk to and call on if necessary. He's an amazing person and resource since he, like I imagine all the trackers, consistently sees a cross-section of hunters who've made mistakes or had unexpected things happen to them. I imagine that not-quite-perfect or even bad things can happen with all of us, at some point. In terms of equipment, habits, training, terrain, Rage and its detractors (!) Darren sees hunters at our most vulnerable. I'm sure this ups the no-BS quotient of the stories he hears since the person who calls him in most likely wants to offer up the true story of what happened to increase the odds of getting the deer. 

So I've read, and mostly agree with, the posts about factors like technology, media, hunter over-anxiousness or selfishness, and baiting, I'm writing  simply to attest to the importance of what Darren does, recommend you not hesitate to contact him or another tracker if at all necessary, and that all of us, of course, take the sorts of care the posters describe.

In the meantime, I've replayed it and I've climbed back into the stand to look and think and never repeat this liver shot. I hope that happens. I can't be absolutely positive, but I'll do my best. 

Darren is good guy. I met him years ago at the outdoor expo when Theo was turning 2 years old. Paul (another tracker with dog Dallas) was doing the tracking simulation at the time I attended. I got to spend a little time seeing pics of some of the animals they recovered. And to hear about the dedication these guys have helping hunters find their deer/bear is very honorable.  I wouldn't hesitate to call either of them if needed. Glad you found your doe. Any pics?

[JFC1]

18 hours ago, deadonshot2 said:

Darren is good guy. I met him years ago at the outdoor expo when Theo was turning 2 years old. Paul (another tracker with dog Dallas) was doing the tracking simulation at the time I attended. I got to spend a little time seeing pics of some of the animals they recovered. And to hear about the dedication these guys have helping hunters find their deer/bear is very honorable.  I wouldn't hesitate to call either of them if needed. Glad you found your doe. Any pics?

 

[deadonshot2]

1 hour ago, JFC1 said:

 

Nice. Glad you wete able salvage a lot from her.

[JHbowhunter]

On 9/18/2021 at 1:53 PM, JFC1 said:

OK, this is a tough post to put up but I think some of the observations may be helpful

On Wednesday night, after I'd previously welcomed Darren electronically to this site, I had to contact him.

I shot a doe at last light at twenty yards, with crossbow with Muzzy 3-blade 100grains from a stand in a new spot I was hunting for the  first time. There was no EAB pressure, I'd watched her for 15 minutes, she was calm and broadside, and I'm consistently able to place my shots in a target and in deer, taking them without losing them. But I made a bad shot, a liver shot. After sitting an hr, I tracked her very light blood trail and pools of good blood where she rested, and then it petered out. About 9pm i texted Darren. After exiting I was back in woods about 1130PM and I searched till 2:30AM. No luck. Darren came by with Theo in the morning, after a light rain had fallen. Theo was on the deer's trail immediately, and he happily found the animal pretty quickly. So I was happy, like Theo.  But we found no blood trail and she'd traversed an area that'd been flooded in the recent storms and full of downed trees and twisted roses that would have made a grid search very time consuming on a hot day. It was fascinating and gratifying to see the dog at work, along with Darren.

While of course the chest cavity was a no-go, I was able to salvage the back straps, front legs, and say 65% of each hind leg that had been torn lightly at the anus by some sort of canine. Since it was a doe, and then I took another doe on Friday and I'll be patient and choosy while looking at bucks, there was no issue of anxiousness or horn fever here motivating the shot or calling in Darren. There was no trophy. It's just that I made a bad shot for reasons I need to analyze carefully and I didn't want to open my season by losing a deer on my first hunt. Plain and simple. 

I can't be happier about calling in Darren, even if I'm not happy to tell you my screw-up at the origin of this true story. Grid searching would have meant that the meat would have spoiled, and I may never have found the animal. Now I don't carry the karma today of killing a deer by screwing up and then wasting all it's meat. And I got to meet Darren, a dedicated, amazingly knowledgeable, and yet humble guy who I urge all of you to talk to and call on if necessary. He's an amazing person and resource since he, like I imagine all the trackers, consistently sees a cross-section of hunters who've made mistakes or had unexpected things happen to them. I imagine that not-quite-perfect or even bad things can happen with all of us, at some point. In terms of equipment, habits, training, terrain, Rage and its detractors (!) Darren sees hunters at our most vulnerable. I'm sure this ups the no-BS quotient of the stories he hears since the person who calls him in most likely wants to offer up the true story of what happened to increase the odds of getting the deer. 

So I've read, and mostly agree with, the posts about factors like technology, media, hunter over-anxiousness or selfishness, and baiting, I'm writing  simply to attest to the importance of what Darren does, recommend you not hesitate to contact him or another tracker if at all necessary, and that all of us, of course, take the sorts of care the posters describe.

In the meantime, I've replayed it and I've climbed back into the stand to look and think and never repeat this liver shot. I hope that happens. I can't be absolutely positive, but I'll do my best. 

Thanks for keeping it honest, and it is great to have Darren and the other trackers as a last resort. 

[Pathman]

On 9/18/2021 at 1:53 PM, JFC1 said:

 

In the meantime, I've replayed it and I've climbed back into the stand to look and think and never repeat this liver shot. I hope that happens. I can't be absolutely positive, but I'll do my best. 

Were you able to determine what caused the errant shot?

[Turkeyslayer]

On 9/14/2021 at 10:13 PM, Haskell_Hunter said:

People take crappy shots more often than not.  I harvested an 8-pointer a few years ago with an arrow sticking out of its shoulder.  Butchers regularly pull more than one broadhead out of deer each season.  It takes a very mature hunter to take a good shot.  A mature hunter would rather let a deer walk because they didn't have an ethical shot than to release a Hail Mary arrow.

I've never lost a deer, and I've only lost one turkey.  I felt like crap for not recovering the turkey, and I lost it due to poor shot placement.  I won't take a shot if I don't have a clean and guaranteed quick kill shot.

I'd like to think bad shots are rare, but I've pulled arrows out of deer I've harvested.  I think it happens more than anyone would admit.

I agree with you more then anything i have killed numerous deer and plenty big bucks and I have also let numerous bucks walk because the shot wasn’t right. It takes a man and a mature hunter to know not to shoot

[JFC1]

On 9/19/2021 at 5:32 PM, Pathman said:

Were you able to determine what caused the errant shot?

I think so. A combination of three factors that compounded one another, and that all lead back to hunter error and not enough care:

1) I tuned my crossbow before opening day, then carried it with me to NY and back. When I checked it on the target on Thursday after the poor shot on the deer on Wednesday it was pulling 1.5" to the right at 20-25 yards. The scope must have been banged in the trip and I should have checked it again when I returned, before going out hunting. Or else protected the xbow better. Inexcusable carelessness. 

2) When I aimed I went up the front leg, bisected the deer horizontally and then accounted for stand height while looking where the arrow would exit since it was slightly uphill of my stand's base. I then moved slightly out, backwards toward the rib cage. I'd been reading in I think Field and Stream a suggestion that it's "always safer" to aim slightly farther back. and I decided to take the advice. I probably moved it  3" back away from the shoulder this way. In a different thread--I think Archer36' discussion of guides and S. African large animals--I see Rusty insisting that straight up the leg is always the way so the deer drops quickly. That's always how I'd done it up till now. I don't know why I doubted and changed, except that I wanted to be sure I didn't hit bone and the advice made sense at the time even though I don't shoot Rage.

3) I called the deer "broadside." I did so even after I'd butchered it, and thus had seen entrance and exit holes that didn't quite align. In other words, the deer was broadside only "close enough for government work." But thinking clearly it had to have had a slight quartering toward orientation. This makes sense too since it had been quartering toward when I was watching it, and then I decided it was broadside. Very slight. But real. I should have waited one more step. I said in my post above "no horn fever" but this is clearly bad judgment, as clouded by anticipation or immaturity.

So there's little mystery as to how these three factors can add up to a liver shot placed too far back, and thus a more difficult recovery and poorer blood trail. The only thing I'm glad about is that I managed to get the animal before having to go over these factors in my mind.

Thanks for asking. It's important to crystallize what happened so there's no repeat. I hope it never happens again and your questions help that by encouraging me to play over clearly, and on a public forum, three mistakes. I've never been one for "hail Mary" shots, but clearly I made mistakes, and definable ones, in this case. 

Any comments welcome and appreciated. As is this forum and the expertise of its members.

 

[JHbowhunter]

2 hours ago, JFC1 said:

I think so. A combination of three factors that compounded one another, and that all lead back to hunter error and not enough care:

1) I tuned my crossbow before opening day, then carried it with me to NY and back. When I checked it on the target on Thursday after the poor shot on the deer on Wednesday it was pulling 1.5" to the right at 20-25 yards. The scope must have been banged in the trip and I should have checked it again when I returned, before going out hunting. Or else protected the xbow better. Inexcusable carelessness. 

2) When I aimed I went up the front leg, bisected the deer horizontally and then accounted for stand height while looking where the arrow would exit since it was slightly uphill of my stand's base. I then moved slightly out, backwards toward the rib cage. I'd been reading in I think Field and Stream a suggestion that it's "always safer" to aim slightly farther back. and I decided to take the advice. I probably moved it  3" back away from the shoulder this way. In a different thread--I think Archer36' discussion of guides and S. African large animals--I see Rusty insisting that straight up the leg is always the way so the deer drops quickly. That's always how I'd done it up till now. I don't know why I doubted and changed, except that I wanted to be sure I didn't hit bone and the advice made sense at the time even though I don't shoot Rage.

3) I called the deer "broadside." I did so even after I'd butchered it, and thus had seen entrance and exit holes that didn't quite align. In other words, the deer was broadside only "close enough for government work." But thinking clearly it had to have had a slight quartering toward orientation. This makes sense too since it had been quartering toward when I was watching it, and then I decided it was broadside. Very slight. But real. I should have waited one more step. I said in my post above "no horn fever" but this is clearly bad judgment, as clouded by anticipation or immaturity.

So there's little mystery as to how these three factors can add up to a liver shot placed too far back, and thus a more difficult recovery and poorer blood trail. The only thing I'm glad about is that I managed to get the animal before having to go over these factors in my mind.

Thanks for asking. It's important to crystallize what happened so there's no repeat. I hope it never happens again and your questions help that by encouraging me to play over clearly, and on a public forum, three mistakes. I've never been one for "hail Mary" shots, but clearly I made mistakes, and definable ones, in this case. 

Any comments welcome and appreciated. As is this forum and the expertise of its members.

 

I think you summarized it exactly right - you had conflicting factors mentally combined with a xbow that was already compromised 1.5" left of center at 20 yards, so had you "hit the green dot" you still would have double-lunged, but since you chose to move away from that spot, too close to margin for error.