Right behind the shoulder, . . . NOT!

[hammer4reel]

5 minutes ago, not on the rug said:

Do you carry a spare tire in your truck or have AAA? That's the concept of Plan B.  Not everything goes right every single time and it's better to penetrate a scapula than to use it like a dartboard

Nothing wrong with a 500g or 600g arrow for whitetails, especially when you're taking 15-30yd shots 99% of the time.  My 500g arrow impact at 30 yards is like 2" lower than my 400g arrow, so let's stop pretending that "heavy" arrows are these big lumbering missles that fall out of the sky like a bowling ball launched from a catapult 

IMO plan B Definetly is not for shooting through the scapula . As unless your very high in s stand it isn’t getting you into the vitals .

my set up is more designed for the head hitting less vital areas and still getting maximum hemorrhage .

 

shooting tight in the shoulder I don’t want vertical disadvantage . You will already have that just due to possible deer movement down , or yardage error .

so IMO. Keeping vertical adjustment less allows you to keep the broadhead in the V.

99% of penetration problems with large heads is caused by untuned bows and arrow slap .

HEAVY arrows out of a slow moving stick bow , and out of a high speed compound are not exactly the same .

no matter what your build is each bow will like the arrow spined correctly for the quickest flight recovery .

‘arrows aren’t spinning until 21 feet . So if shooting 10 yards you have only had 9 foot of correction.

‘unless your nock is following true by that point your penetration will still suffer .

put that same deer out 25 yards and your penetration due to the nock following true can double your penetration.

.

since I’m shooting about 95% of my deer under 17 yards I want the absolute quickest TRUE arrow flight .

.

 

as far as you telling me your heavy arrows only impact a few inches less , your using a static aiming point .

‘as little as 10 grains can change the gaps required for me to shoot a 12 ring , at 40 and 50 yards . So I’m set up to get the best of both worlds ..

 

[hammer4reel]

25 minutes ago, Northjerseyoutdoorsman said:

Sure most of the time things go right and a light arrow is going to go in the dirt 6 inches but it doesn't always go right. My arrow change was mostly down with Africa in mind. I'm not looking to spend a couple thousand dollars on a wounded animal that I can't find because I got poor penetration or made a bad shot And the shoulder stopped it.  I've watched lots of videos of light arrows barley getting 10 Inches of penetration on alot of the game out there and falling out.  As far as whitetails sure it's way overkill but it will do the job and peice of mind knowing it will break through any bone is nice to have. I know you shoot grim reapers and I've had alot of success with them with well places shots but I have also had one get zero penetration And get stopped by the near side scapula my current set up would have blown right through that shoulder passed through And blown through the second if it was In line with it. Mistakes happen even if you practice daily.

 

 

Your definetly looking to maximize your penetration on LARGER thicker game you will encounter in Africa 

Where is takes more to punch fully through the animal .

‘as I said WHITETAILS just don’t take that same degree to punch through ..

‘my comment about it not being needed was on whitetail 

 

[tcook8296]

Getting up near the shoulder on a live game animal is risky. 

You can shoot it all day long from the ground on a stationary target. Not real hunting conditions. 

Ive lost more deer than Id like to admit to arrows hitting shoulders. 

A lot of bad shots are just plain bad shot angles. 

A lot of guys arent patient enough or get caught up in the moment and force the shot. 

I try to concrntrate on getting the best shot angle even if it means letting the deer walk. 

I will move back off the shoulder and take the double lung shot. 

Deer move, I dont go for the perfect shot but a kill shot. 

Even if it means they may not drop as quickly as one would like. 

Luckily I was able to get another opportunity

[Lunatic]

19 minutes ago, tcook8296 said:

y

Thats not a shoulder hit? I would think you recovered this deer but from the picture you did not

[JHbowhunter]

19 minutes ago, tcook8296 said:

Getting up near the shoulder on a live game animal is risky. 

You can shoot it all day long from the ground on a stationary target. Not real hunting conditions. 

Ive lost more deer than Id like to admit to arrows hitting shoulders. 

A lot of bad shots are just plain bad shot angles. 

A lot of guys arent patient enough or get caught up in the moment and force the shot. 

I try to concrntrate on getting the best shot angle even if it means letting the deer walk. 

I will move back off the shoulder and take the double lung shot. 

Deer move, I dont go for the perfect shot but a kill shot. 

Even if it means they may not drop as quickly as one would like. 

Luckily I was able to get another opportunity

 

That hit obviously looks close to the "green dot" if it were perfectly broadside. The only that buck walks away alive with a POI of that spot, is if the angle was quartering away and the killing part of the arrow (BH) stayed in front of vitals.     In which case - had the POI been 4-6" back, would have dropped in sight...  That is why many of us preach shooting for the exit (notice how many times it's already mentioned in this post).   The green dot represents the intersection point- but not always the POI unless perfectly broadside...    Angles are just as important - how high up you are and orientation of the deer. 

Hunters need to reverse the sequence and think your shot selection in this sequence:

1) Exit hole

2) Interection point - must intersect the green dot

3) POI - point of impact to achieve #2 and #1...

One thing I have learned from every kill is that broadside is rarely broadside - when you hit exactly where you wanted, often surprised to see exit is not of the same exact horizontal.   

I really firmly believe exit-interersect-POI sequence should be permenently etched in every hunters mind  long before they draw and ONLY be thinking those three things. Don't look at the rack, just be sure of those three things as you draw. 

[JHbowhunter]

6 minutes ago, Lunatic said:

Thats not a shoulder hit? I would think you recovered this deer but from the picture you did not

I think Tom got him round 2...  many weeks later

[not on the rug]

31 minutes ago, hammer4reel said:

IMO plan B Definetly is not for shooting through the scapula . As unless your very high in s stand it isn’t getting you into the vitals .

my set up is more designed for the head hitting less vital areas and still getting maximum hemorrhage .

 

shooting tight in the shoulder I don’t want vertical disadvantage . You will already have that just due to possible deer movement down , or yardage error .

so IMO. Keeping vertical adjustment less allows you to keep the broadhead in the V.

99% of penetration problems with large heads is caused by untuned bows and arrow slap .

HEAVY arrows out of a slow moving stick bow , and out of a high speed compound are not exactly the same .

no matter what your build is each bow will like the arrow spined correctly for the quickest flight recovery .

‘arrows aren’t spinning until 21 feet . So if shooting 10 yards you have only had 9 foot of correction.

‘unless your nock is following true by that point your penetration will still suffer .

put that same deer out 25 yards and your penetration due to the nock following true can double your penetration.

.

since I’m shooting about 95% of my deer under 17 yards I want the absolute quickest TRUE arrow flight .

.

 

as far as you telling me your heavy arrows only impact a few inches less , your using a static aiming point .

‘as little as 10 grains can change the gaps required for me to shoot a 12 ring , at 40 and 50 yards . So I’m set up to get the best of both worlds ..

 

You're 100% correct about poor arrow flight.  In Ashby's 12 factors, it's #2.  #1 is structural integrity.  If you're shooting a flimsy head or arrow, and it breaks when it hits something,  it won't kill.  So yeah,  a perfectly tuned bow with perfect arrow flight is clearly the next best thing.  Arrow impact that isn't perfect dramatically affects penetration.   You can see that in countless slo-mo videos on YouTube.  Same with arrows with FOC that is too low.  "Impact Paradox" slo-mo videos show that as FOC increases, there is less and less arrow wiggle upon impact and as it penetrates.  You get the dart affect: the heavy end pulls the arrow through the target and maintains it's momentum as it inpacts.  Arrows lower in FOC and lower in overall mass suffer and wobble/flop on impact.  

If you do the reading and watch the videos, a heavy arrow stabilizes in flight faster than a lighter arrow.  A properly tuned bow and well built arrow should be achieving perfect bareshaft flight at 20 yards.  Fletching becomes irrelevant.   There is a guy on AT who tests all sorts of fletching out, puts them on backwards, uses other materials, etc and they basically have zero impact on arrow flight at whitetail hunting ranges.

My gaps aren't bad with a 500g arrow, as I'm still getting good speed from my bows.  I haven't tinkered with the 625g hog hunt arrow that much yet, but I expect larger gap for sure there.  I may have to run the pin distances closer together for that setup, but then again, you're not blasting them too far away, so range changes and guessing at gaps isn't much of a problem

 

[Scotty155]

Personally,  one of the best practices i worked into my archery routines was the purchase of ballistics gel and the use of various; spines, total arrow weight, collars, broadheads, foc, etc. 

This will teach the pros and cons of the variations based on your shot mechanics, and your personal set up, as it relates to penetration. 

Edited January 17, 2021 by Scotty155

[username]

On 1/16/2021 at 9:30 AM, Rusty said:

Shoot THROUGH the shoulder Not Behind!  (sorry for yelling)

I tried your advice the other day and have a few questions.

First, what if a deer does not have a green or red dot on it?  I've only seen fawn in the States and Sika outside of the US with white spots; never red or green.  In any case, there's so many spots; which would you choose?

Second, why not just shoot through the heart?

Finally, what part of the heart would you suggest we shoot: right ventricle, left, or both?

[LPJR]

19 minutes ago, username said:

 

Nice shot Pete. Well done.

Hope to get there on Monday if my schedule doesn't change....

[Rusty]

20 minutes ago, username said:

I tried your advice the other day and have a few questions.

First, what if a deer does not have a green or red dot on it?  I've only seen fawn in the States and Sika outside of the US with white spots; never red or green.  In any case, there's so many spots; which would you choose?

Second, why not just shoot through the heart?

Finally, what part of the heart would you suggest we shoot: right ventricle, left, or both?

  

I usually aim for the left ventricle, it drops them quicker than the right.  

 

P.S.  Nice shooting!!!  

[bushden]

On 1/17/2021 at 8:44 AM, tcook8296 said:

Getting up near the shoulder on a live game animal is risky. 

You can shoot it all day long from the ground on a stationary target. Not real hunting conditions. 

Ive lost more deer than Id like to admit to arrows hitting shoulders. 

A lot of bad shots are just plain bad shot angles. 

A lot of guys arent patient enough or get caught up in the moment and force the shot. 

I try to concrntrate on getting the best shot angle even if it means letting the deer walk. 

I will move back off the shoulder and take the double lung shot. 

Deer move, I dont go for the perfect shot but a kill shot. 

Even if it means they may not drop as quickly as one would like. 

Luckily I was able to get another opportunity

I try to take the shot as the deer steps forward and exposes the heart area, when that is not possible I will try toanglethrough the lungs.That works pretty good for me.

[Trophy8]

Right above the elbow,  right vs left..don't matter...game over