Is the 6-Day tradition a thing of the past?

[BHC]

I was born/raised in Lodi (Bergen County) lived there for 38 years, only deer seen in my days hung from trees in hunters yards, Now deer are plentiful, and if fact big bucks. Across from Lodi High School is a cemetery loaded with deer, and big bucks as well, parks in Saddle Brook also loaded with deer, Paramus always had small pockets of deer, and the case for many bergen county towns. So the deer are in very good if not great numbers in places where no hunting is allowed or is very limited, versus areas where hunting takes place 6 months per year. I drive from southern warren county to Rahway each day for work, I see more deer near Rahway then where I live.....

[Lunatic]

Paying for taking deer does not spread it out like the fish limit. Fish limit puts the same restriction on every single person while the suggested pay to play for deer hunting does not. People with money take more deer  and how does that give other hunters chance at available resources? Limit the bag limit on deer and then you could compare this to fish limit as a meaningful way to give everyone a chance at our resources.

 

 

Another problem with paying for each does you kill is the very problem we have with bucks. Once they attached a dollar number to each and every buck it is very hard to reduce the bag limit. This is the problem right now, with I think 6 bucks because each one is worth $28 and they will not give up this money. If you do the same thing with does, charge for each taken, it will be very difficult to reduce the bag limit in the future because the revenue will be directly proportional to number of does killed. Bad all around idea.

[Tater1973]

BHC your post from 0653 HRS pretty much nailed it!!!  Agree 100%%%

[Farmshine]

I was born/raised in Lodi (Bergen County) lived there for 38 years, only deer seen in my days hung from trees in hunters yards, Now deer are plentiful, and if fact big bucks. Across from Lodi High School is a cemetery loaded with deer, and big bucks as well, parks in Saddle Brook also loaded with deer, Paramus always had small pockets of deer, and the case for many bergen county towns. So the deer are in very good if not great numbers in places where no hunting is allowed or is very limited, versus areas where hunting takes place 6 months per year. I drive from southern warren county to Rahway each day for work, I see more deer near Rahway then where I live.....

Southern warren county, especially the 519 corridor gets pounded with deer drives. From the white /hope border south to pohatcong. If you go ten miles east it’s a different story.

 

 

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[JHbowhunter]

Another problem with paying for each does you kill is the very problem we have with bucks. Once they attached a dollar number to each and every buck it is very hard to reduce the bag limit. This is the problem right now, with I think 6 bucks because each one is worth $28 and they will not give up this money. If you do the same thing with does, charge for each taken, it will be very difficult to reduce the bag limit in the future because the revenue will be directly proportional to number of does killed. Bad all around idea.

 

Technically each buck today is not a $28 permit.   All around sportsman gets you a winter bow buck, a fall bow buck, and two 6-day bucks.   So that is 4 of the 6.   $28 permit gets you a permit bow and muzzy buck each.  It's the seasons/ weapons where the $ starts to pile up.

 

The more I think about it the Ohio model is really the best.  It does separate deer hunting from hunting license but requires both, but the deer permit system is much more intertwined with MANAGEMENT and not 100% focused on REVENUE.

 

The very concept of "permit bow" is stupid....   Just charge more for a bow license, what percentage of bow hunters are NOT doing permit bow?  Has to be miniscule.   Here is my final proposal:

 

1) You have to buy a hunting license to hunt "anything" in NJ...  NON-REZ needs to be much higher.  The license itself, is not weapon specific, it covers all weapons (but based on season, you need to have proof of hunter safety for gun or bow). If they still want to offer "all around" at a discount - fine, but it does not include ability shoot any deer unless permit process is followed as below:

2) DEER PERMIT EITHER SEX (up to two flexible tags to be used at hunters discretion.)  If you want two - you have to buy them both "together". Price is TBD - perhaps $40 each for rez, $120 for non-rez?   These permits are not zone-specific but each zone will have its own bag limits.

3) DEER PERMIT ANTLERLESS.   Much lower in price - lets say $5 rez, $25 non-rez.  These are not zone specific, but each DMZ will set it's own limits. If you want to shoot multiple antlerless in one day, and not burn your 'either sex' tag, you must have pre-purchased 2 or more antlerless tags.  Based on DMZ limits, you would pre-purchase accordingly as to your plans and needs.

4) Bow season starts late September / Early October based on how the weekend hits, and ends last Sunday in January. 

5) Bag limits are set as per DMZ based on sound "management" principals.   With the permit system is place - all confusion is gone, and it's very easy to figure out and bag limits span ALL SEASONS.  Since there is a maximum of two "either sex" allowed, bag limits really will just need to govern "antlerless" quotas per DMZ

6) Shotgun season stays as is for the "traditional" week.  As stated, antlerless bag limits will be set as per DMZ. Some may allow antlerless to be taken concurrent to 6-day, some DMZs may not. Some DMZs may allow an additional 2 days of shotgun the following Friday/Saturday after 6-day ends and that is ALL for shotgun.

7) Muzzeloader season opens Monday after Thanksgiving, as it has traditionally and runs the usual 2 days.  Some DMZs may allow up to an additional 7 days of muzzy, ending 12/31.   (nothing in January).

 

This system has something for everyone, and it greatly simplifies the process and if properly priced could maintain current revenue stream, and would not impede the hunter that "needs" to put 12 deer in their freezer every season but would limit that rare breed that needs to kill 6 bucks...    And hey - if it were even remotely possible or enforceable, button bucks would require an "either sex" tag and not an antlerless, but I doubt that would pass because it would probably result in too many untagged buttons or left to rot in woods for all those "mistakes" made by those that for whatever reason, either refuse to look and study before they shoot or have no clue how to tell the difference...

 

I firmly believe this system is the perfect compromise of quality/quantity if properly executed and managed.

 

The biggest farce in current limits on antlerless that went from "unlimited" down to 9, or 5, is that it resets with the next season or permit season. My proposal just limits your individual quota per zone and covers all seasons. The F&G Database could be easily designed to track each hunters quotas per DMZ.

Edited December 7, 2017 by JHbowhunter

[not on the rug]

I'd change 2 things in Jack's model:  1 is that Shotgun week would not allow antlerless deer to be taken in any Zone.  Bring back a doe day or two, and have them come in a week or two after 6-day.  This would cut down on the out of state and some of the instate hooligans coming in to ravage the WMAs for anything brown.  In state hunters could enjoy 6 day for what it is, it would re-new the tradition of going out and hunting during that week. If the clubs want to come and drive the WMAs at the end of december and shoot anything that moves, then so be it.  

 

The second thing is that I'd keep the start of early archery season where it is.  I for one, and I know I'm not alone, love the opportunity to go after a big buck in velvet.  I don't think that those first few weeks are doing much damage to the herd.  If they really are, then eliminate EAB

[Haskell_Hunter]

If the department published the # of each specific license purchased for each season, I could do a financial analysis of where the revenue is coming from.  Then, we can take the recommended changes in this thread and come up with a place range for certain permits based on exiting buying habits and revenue generated.

 

The challenge is mapping new licensing models to generate existing or better revenue for the department.  That will motivate the legislature to make the changes.  Money motivates.

[BHC]

If antler restrictions don't work like some say, then why is it in places like Illinois, Iowa, Ohio etc. where there are outfitters who demand size requirements they continue year after year producing great bucks? Don't tell me it's genetics, food, habit, hunting pressure.....cause many claim NJ can have quality bucks......Also PA has AR for many years, and I see from posted pictures the quality of bucks over the years

[Lunatic]

If antler restrictions don't work like some say, then why is it in places like Illinois, Iowa, Ohio etc. where there are outfitters who demand size requirements they continue year after year producing great bucks? Don't tell me it's genetics, food, habit, hunting pressure.....cause many claim NJ can have quality bucks......Also PA has AR for many years, and I see from posted pictures the quality of bucks over the years

 

I think the difference is, in places like Illinois the restrictions are on already mature bucks. 135" or 4.5 YO. If the deer is not 135" at age 4.5 they want him out.  That's opposite of what we have here. AR in NJ and PA is on very young bucks and the theory is you are killing bucks with good genetics and letting lesser bucks walk.

Honestly I don't know. I hear the argument I stated above, However there is also an argument about how it is impossible to judge deer's genetics based on his antlers size  at 1.5 YOA. A 2 point spike at 1.5 maybe a 190" deer at 4.5. I don't know

[Haskell_Hunter]

If antler restrictions don't work like some say, then why is it in places like Illinois, Iowa, Ohio etc. where there are outfitters who demand size requirements they continue year after year producing great bucks? Don't tell me it's genetics, food, habit, hunting pressure.....cause many claim NJ can have quality bucks......Also PA has AR for many years, and I see from posted pictures the quality of bucks over the years

 

It's the overall state management plan.  How many bucks can a hunter harvest in these states?  How much of that land is privately managed land?  Each state is different, and NJ is unique.  Just because it works in a western state that is larger than NJ with more open lands and larger tracts of privately owned land, doesn't mean it works in overly-populated, small private parcel NJ.

[BenedictGomez]

 There is positively less habitat for all wildlife now than there was in 1971. Any place there is new pavement since then means that habitat was lost. However, some of the remaining habitat has been improved for deer because, like you said, it created edges. And there aren't more deer now than there were in 1971. 

 

That is categorically false.    

[BenedictGomez]

If the department published the # of each specific license purchased for each season, I could do a financial analysis of where the revenue is coming from.  Then, we can take the recommended changes in this thread and come up with a place range for certain permits based on exiting buying habits and revenue generated.

 

 

You can ask, but I dont find them very forthcoming with handing out data.  I ask them for things from time to time so I can do some analytics, and it can be like pulling teeth.  They seem almost "protective" over their data and usually ask me "why" I want this or that, etc... Dont get me wrong, they are helpful, but it feels like they're handling government nuclear secrets rather than simple license and/or kill data.

 

If antler restrictions don't work like some say, then why is it in places like Illinois, Iowa, Ohio etc. where there are outfitters who demand size requirements they continue year after year producing great bucks? Don't tell me it's genetics, food, habit, hunting pressure.....cause many claim NJ can have quality bucks......Also PA has AR for many years, and I see from posted pictures the quality of bucks over the years

 

It really is a combination of genetics, food sources, habitat, and hunting pressure.  

[BHC]

states like Illinois, Ohio, Iowa DO NOT have AR, it's the locals, and the outfitters that police themselves cause they rather have quality over quantity

 

AR works period, no matter what state it is, but it should be statewide......You can't have it for one zone versus not having it in another zone....We all know there are jerks out there who hunts a AR zone, but is desperate to kill, and kills a small buck and tags it in a zone without AR....

[BenedictGomez]

less deer roaming in NJ today then 20/25 years ago.  

 

Everyone always says this, and "everyone" is correct.

The problem, however, is this statement represents the ultimate in data cherry picking, as that time-frame correlates to the absolute historical peak years in New Jersey whitetail population. 

 

 It's a bit like when liberals present Global Warming charts and their "start year" for the chart makes it look like an upward warming staircase because the preceding years left off the chart would be unfavorable to their argument.

[Haskell_Hunter]

Everyone always says this, and "everyone" is correct.

The problem, however, is this statement represents the ultimate in data cherry picking, as that time-frame correlates to the absolute historical peak years in New Jersey whitetail population. 

 

 It's a bit like when liberals present Global Warming charts and their "start year" for the chart makes it look like an upward warming staircase because the preceding years left off the chart would be unfavorable to their argument.

 

The data sampling methodologies are also variable from year to year, and they are only estimates with a decent percent error.  We will never know exactly how many deer are in this state, and comparing year-to-year population estimates created with different estimating models requires complex statistical modeling that even good analysts wouldn't be able to do.