Is the 6-Day tradition a thing of the past?

[Haskell_Hunter]

Treat NJ "revenue" with licenses and permits - determne what weapon can be used during what dates/seasons and for how long... 

...

 

two flexible buck tags per year - one more than Ohio and Pennsylvania allow, but not the "6" that can be accomplished today, should one buy every single permit and license there is and actually complete the "jersey slam".

 

 

At the end of the day it's about money, that's it.

 

With a firearm hunting license you can hunt 6-day.  One price, one week.  Adding bow, muzzleloader, and rifle permits means more revenue for the state.  Then add the cost of buck permits for each zone, and there's even more money.

 

If NJ made the permitting process simpler and had the best interests of the herd in mind, we could make all of these sensible changes.  However, that would significantly impact their revenue stream from the multiple licenses and permits a hunter needs to acquire to hunt in this state.

 

The reason we see a giant influx of hunters during 6-day is because it's the cheapest season to hunt.  In order to make it productive for those folks, they set up drives and hunt "brown and down".  They want to get their money's worth out of the cost of the permit.  They are interested in a deer, not always in hunting.

 

 

If we didn't buy all of the other associated season permits, the state would lose revenue and reconsider its permitting process to better accommodate different hunters.  But we're not going to stop buying those permits, so the state isn't going to change their permitting process.

 

It's sad, but it seems to be the truth, IMHO.

[hammer4reel]

Bullshit it has nothing to do with revenue.

IF it did you would pay for every deer you harvest .

and need a fresh tag for each one.

Our deer seasons are based on what the insurance companies want killed  PERIOD.

and even on 101.5 this week they are saying the deer herd is still too high in NJ based on 26000 deer auto accidents a year.

There was talk of asking that bag limits be increased.

The extra bucks tags are a penalty for shooting bucks ( as only one deer is removed from NEXT years herd that way.

They want DOES shot as it eliminates 3 from next years herd.

 

I also would love seeing them change the regs to only allow 2 bucks a season shot, as we do have the capabilties to grow bigger deer here.

Need extra meat shoot more does.

Edited December 6, 2017 by hammer4reel

[BHC]

Before my good friend passed away, we had a group of 8 we would goto the house the Saturday before opening day and stay till the following Sunday, it was great....Lots of laughs. After he passed away,  months later myself with one other guy suggested we continue what we had and rent a house in the area only 15 mins from our hunting area. But the rest of the crew declined for whatever the reason, yet they travel from bergen county the 75 minute drive.....oh well

[JHbowhunter]

Bullshit it has nothing to do with revenue.

IF it did you would pay for every deer you harvest .

and need a fresh tag for each one.

Our deer seasons are based on what the insurance companies want killed  PERIOD.

and even on 101.5 this week they are saying the deer herd is still too high in NJ based on 26000 deer auto accidents a year.

There was talk of asking that bag limits be increased.

The extra bucks tags are a penalty for shooting bucks ( as only one deer is removed from NEXT years herd that way.

They want DOES shot as it eliminates 3 from next years herd.

 

I also would love seeing them change the regs to only allow 2 bucks a season shot, as we do have the capabilties to grow bigger deer here.

Need extra meat shoot more does.

 

But Dan - there are a lot of hunters that do buy all the tags and permits, even multiple zones, and never harvest a deer or very few to justify the cost of all that.  If it was "pay per deer" the state would lose even more money I think?

 

Even myself (NOT TOOTING MY HORN), I had all around sportsman, fall permit bow for 2 zones, fall permit buck tag.    I shot a buck and doe with my non-permit regular fall bow license (under the all around license).   I will be most likely eating my permit bow tags due to lack of quality bucks and lack of interest in hunting much more. If they were to charge $28 a deer tag "ala cart" then I would have gotten off cheaper.   I hear what you are saying, but I think they would lose a lot more revenue if they charged "per deer" unless it was like $99 per deer.

 

Back on topic to 6-day, it used to be 1 buck a week, but it's been 2 for a very long time and has remained unchanged for decades, meanwhile they have engineered all the other various permits and seasons around 6-day and left 6-day alone.   To Rusty's point, it's become less popular for every reason that has been mentioned in this thread.   At least drop the "2 buck" limit from it, and treat it like all the other seasons, but much better to just separate bag limits from seasons and permits altogether. 

 

Actually another thought came to mind, similar to what Ohio does.  You have to buy a hunting license, but the deer management requires a permit. You can get one either-sex, which would be your buck tag for the entire year. You can also buy additional antlerless tags, but the amount is determined by county.    So - how about in order to hunt deer in NJ, you obsiously need a bow, gun, or all-around license... If you only hunt small game - that's all you need. Waterfowl - same, other than your other stamps, etc...  DEER- you can buy up to 2 buck tags but you have to buy them with your license, in advance to avoid any post-kill purchases. These tags are good for all seasons.  Antlerless permits, also available at a cheaper discount and simply require that permit much be purchased prior to harvest date. Maybe even a lot multiple antlerless per-permit, like up to 5 or so.    That takes care of the management side of things - with some revenue affixed to it...

 

That only leaves the "weapon/season" side of it - which is PURE REVENUE.

[DV1]

Bullshit it has nothing to do with revenue. --Right from the Deer Project Leaders mouth; the license and permit system as it is today (2009) is about revenue generation and not about deer herd management. This was in response to a question about why, since we no longer limit the number of permits per zone, or antlerless deer you can kill, do we still have the permit system. That's a fact, not an opinion.

 

Our deer seasons are based on what the insurance companies want killed  PERIOD. --A commonly held belief that is totally untrue. While there may appear to be some benefit from reducing deer numbers for the insurance company, it doesn't impact them financially, or if it does, it's so small as to be insignificant. Additionally, there has never been any connection made between any insurance industry lobbyists and people or policy at the Division of Fish and Wildlife. That is also a fact, not an opinion  People like to make this claim, and the one that insurance companies released the coyotes into NJ all the time. Don't know why, both are silly, but they persist. The biggest influence over F&G policy is a tie between hunters and farmers, who are usually at odds with the goals of the deer management program. In fact, if you substituted "agricultural lobby" for "insurance companies" in your claim, you would be pretty accurate.

 

The biggest impediment to the dream license and permit system that many seem to want is that it takes action from the Legislature, not the Division or F&G Council. So you can say it's from laziness, or a lack of desire to craft and lobby for that Legislation but it has nothing to do with insurance companies, and is indirectly related to revenue in that, any State Legislature would be unwilling to undertake a measure that would decrease the money they have coming in to spend. 

[buckfever1974]

I think traditions are what you make them to be.

 

Several changes in the seasons, bag limits, baiting and no more check stations have all effected what we do and the traditions that are set.  I think also the lack of our youths interest means fewer parents, uncles or grandparents being able to get them out there to carry on traditions.

 

I say start new traditions.

 

It's not hunting but the opener of trout season has seen my dad (rest his soul) and I come out to some kind of Cabin, cheapo motel, tent for that weekend every year since for the last 26 years or so.  Dinner at Walpack has been something I've added with my children the last 3 years.  We have already started making plans and it is 6 months away.  

 

It's a little tougher for us with deer hunting because one kid shoots only bow, the other does both and they both play sports all fall long.  One is a morning person and the other does not.  Having said that, whether it's an early morning or an evening hunt, I try my best to make it and event every time.  Usually either kicked off or capped off by a visit to Jumboland which, as my 11 year old puts it...."Jumboland makes every hunt trip better".  

 

The last thing I want to say on this topic....it has become harder and harder to find anyone who is a true hunting buddy....or who can be trusted with hunting area or gear.  We've all been burned before I am sure.  We are leaving more and more gear in the woods with new technology and that opens itself up to being stolen.  Sucks...Sucks big time.  

 

If you have those good hunting buddies, family traditions and so on, embrace them.  Bring the kids into it as often as possible and make your own traditions that can not be effected by seasonal changes, bag limits and so on.

 

Good luck.

Edited December 6, 2017 by buckfever1974

[BHC]

Insurance and money making for the state plays a role

 

About 7 years ago I was at the show in Edison, I was speaking to the lady in charge of NJ's deer herd at the time, not sure if she is still in charge. I asked her why not try for a few years antler restrictions in ZONE 4, the area is vast and has potential, she said at first it will not work in that zone cause of the terrain. I replied with Pennsylvania has AR on their side of the river on the same land, and it's working (Delaware Water Gap Land).....She paused then said, listen the truth is, ZONE 4 is mostly public land, we want the weekend only hunter and the out of state hunters a chance at any deer, so they return.  Well with that being said I knew right there it's all about the mighty $$$$$$$

[hammer4reel]

The biggest impediment to the dream license and permit system that many seem to want is that it takes action from the Legislature, not the Division or F&G Council. So you can say it's from laziness, or a lack of desire to craft and lobby for that Legislation but it has nothing to do with insurance companies, and is indirectly related to revenue in that, any State Legislature would be unwilling to undertake a measure that would decrease the money they have coming in to spend. 

 

there are approx. 30000 does shot yearly here. If only one was shot by each hunter then I would agree. but MANY if not most of the does shot were done on a tag that could have generated money.

IF the division could show the legislature the could make more more AND still meet harvest goals those changes could happen.

 

IMO the decrease in hunter participation is due to the long deer seasons. While the state wants to think allowing more huntable days keeps guys in it IMO it has done the opposite.

Its  95% all about deer hunting here in NJ . The seasons have taken away many of the other fun things to hunt here. as many clubs don't do anything other that deer hunt so they don't push the deer off their property.

Used to be way more small game hunting, duck and goose hunting etc .

Hunting IMO is about anticipation. bringing youths in that only deer hunt and sooner than later get bored don't get the rest of the hunting experience.

Many of the other types of hunting that could keep new hunters anticipating a shot IMO would keep more in the field.

waiting for a rabbit to be pushed in by the dogs.  a flock of geese coming into the calls etc creates more excitement for a new hunter.

 

.

[JHbowhunter]

definitely agree with the longer season aspect - overall it decreases quality for all the reasons you mention, not to mention conditions the deer to go where they can't be hunted (and they will find those spots to hide)

[hammer4reel]

Insurance and money making for the state plays a role

 

About 7 years ago I was at the show in Edison, I was speaking to the lady in charge of NJ's deer herd at the time, not sure if she is still in charge. I asked her why not try for a few years antler restrictions in ZONE 4, the area is vast and has potential, she said at first it will not work in that zone cause of the terrain. I replied with Pennsylvania has AR on their side of the river on the same land, and it's working (Delaware Water Gap Land).....She paused then said, listen the truth is, ZONE 4 is mostly public land, we want the weekend only hunter and the out of state hunters a chance at any deer, so they return.  Well with that being said I knew right there it's all about the mighty $$$$$$$

 

too many people want to claim antler restrictions don't help the quality of the herd due to hygrading.

as you stated it is working beyond expectations in PA.

The quality of the bucks being taken now just across the river is pretty impressive.

And if anything it should show it does work.

Been hunting in the poconos since 1974, till antler restrictions happened 90% of the bucks shot were pikes and forkhorns.

every 4 or five years you would see a decent buck (100" eight)

they are shooting 130 plus inch deer every season in that area now.

 

would def like to see NJ do it just to get some age on the deer 

[Lunatic]

Insurance and money making for the state plays a role

 

About 7 years ago I was at the show in Edison, I was speaking to the lady in charge of NJ's deer herd at the time, not sure if she is still in charge. I asked her why not try for a few years antler restrictions in ZONE 4, the area is vast and has potential, she said at first it will not work in that zone cause of the terrain. I replied with Pennsylvania has AR on their side of the river on the same land, and it's working (Delaware Water Gap Land).....She paused then said, listen the truth is, ZONE 4 is mostly public land, we want the weekend only hunter and the out of state hunters a chance at any deer, so they return.  Well with that being said I knew right there it's all about the mighty $$$$$$$

 

Deer management in NJ is all about the money. Example: they make you get shotgun permit so you can take down a doe during the 6 day, but you can't hunt for the rest of the month unless you get a muzzy permit. So any working stiff has no choice but to buy the muzzy as well  because without it he can't hunt the following 3 Saturdays. If this does not tell you they are all about money, without any consideration for the wild life conservation/management look at the Spring Turkey season. Who designed this effen, week by week season? It was an accountant, not a biologist.

[Haskell_Hunter]

too many people want to claim antler restrictions don't help the quality of the herd due to hygrading.

as you stated it is working beyond expectations in PA.

The quality of the bucks being taken now just across the river is pretty impressive.

And if anything it should show it does work.

Been hunting in the poconos since 1974, till antler restrictions happened 90% of the bucks shot were pikes and forkhorns.

every 4 or five years you would see a decent buck (100" eight)

they are shooting 130 plus inch deer every season in that area now.

 

would def like to see NJ do it just to get some age on the deer 

 

They are doing antler restrictions in NJ.  Come to zone 3 and hunt with me.  You'll see how great it's working.  And for some reason no one ever takes me up on that offer.

 

 

PA's herd management plan is significantly different than NJ's.  It's not just ARs that contributed to the improved buck growth.  It must be a comprehensive approach in order for it to work.  NJ's approach doesn't work, and haphazard AR rules across the state won't work either.

[JHbowhunter]

HH - I am gonna come up there next year with my climber, near end of October if I can swing it....  How many miles do I have to walk before I find the first fresh scrape and/or rub?

 

And yeah - regarding PA plan, it's more than just APRs, it's ONE buck, not SIX

Edited December 6, 2017 by JHbowhunter

[DV1]

IMO the decrease in hunter participation is due to the long deer seasons. While the state wants to think allowing more huntable days keeps guys in it IMO it has done the opposite.

Its  95% all about deer hunting here in NJ . The seasons have taken away many of the other fun things to hunt here. as many clubs don't do anything other that deer hunt so they don't push the deer off their property.

Used to be way more small game hunting, duck and goose hunting etc .

Hunting IMO is about anticipation. bringing youths in that only deer hunt and sooner than later get bored don't get the rest of the hunting experience.

Many of the other types of hunting that could keep new hunters anticipating a shot IMO would keep more in the field.

waiting for a rabbit to be pushed in by the dogs.  a flock of geese coming into the calls etc creates more excitement for a new hunter.

 

.

I agree with a lot of that. Definitely the longer seasons have reduced the interest/excitement, but that's only one of many factors, mostly because, as we often discuss, people hunt, or don't hunt, for different reasons. I think the reason small game hunting has been in decline is not so much because deer seasons are so long, but that a lot of the habitat for small game has vanished. Rabbit and native pheasant populations are way down, quail basically only exist where stocked and grouse are all but gone. This is also a reason people quit small game. I think waterfowl hunting is still pretty popular. I know almost as many duck and goose hunters as I know deer hunters, it's still very popular down here, maybe because I'm not far from the shore and Delaware bay. 

 

Loss of habitat, decline of small game to hunt, and places to hunt them, dropping deer numbers, increase in youth sports and electronic entertainment, inability to access quality hunting land for deer, and being forced onto public land, where it's a crapstorm around here in bow season now as well as shotgun...all reasons people are losing interest in hunting in NJ. The one thing we don't have in my area that it seems many deal with is the stigma of hunting. Everyone around here hunts...everyone. Gas stations, Walmarts and convenience stores are dominated by denim, camo and overalls. Hell, even a few doctors have their walls covered with mounts. There is still a good bit on interest here, not as much as years past, but still more than enough for the amount of land you can access. Private land is very tough to gain permission on because everyone hunts, and public lands are more crowded now than I have ever seen them. We have fewer hunters but they are crammed on even fewer acres, making it more crowded, and more frustrating to hunt  NJ.

[Lunatic]

there are approx. 30000 does shot yearly here. If only one was shot by each hunter then I would agree. but MANY if not most of the does shot were done on a tag that could have generated money.

IF the division could show the legislature the could make more more AND still meet harvest goals those changes could happen.

 

IMO the decrease in hunter participation is due to the long deer seasons. While the state wants to think allowing more huntable days keeps guys in it IMO it has done the opposite.

Its  95% all about deer hunting here in NJ . The seasons have taken away many of the other fun things to hunt here. as many clubs don't do anything other that deer hunt so they don't push the deer off their property.

Used to be way more small game hunting, duck and goose hunting etc .

Hunting IMO is about anticipation. bringing youths in that only deer hunt and sooner than later get bored don't get the rest of the hunting experience.

Many of the other types of hunting that could keep new hunters anticipating a shot IMO would keep more in the field.

waiting for a rabbit to be pushed in by the dogs.  a flock of geese coming into the calls etc creates more excitement for a new hunter.

 

.

 

1. its an incredibly wrong idea to give to the state a reason to charge us even more for hunting. Don't we pay enough?

2.I don't buy your statement that  people don't hunt rabbits anymore because the deer season is too long and therefor hunters participation is down . Where is the logic? If they are hunting deer instead of rabbits so they are still hunting. How does this reduce hunter's participation? There are no rabbits, that's why they are not hunting rabbits