$15 Minimum Wage

[BowhunterNJ]

COL is outpacing wage growth.  Cost of everything has increased.

You can't just adjust the bottom and not adjust the middle and top.  And you can't adjust all of them UP because then all you've done is inflate everything.  And you can't just adjust the bottom and leave the middle and leave the top because the middle will suffer the most and expand the lower class.  So what's left?  Adjust the bottom UP, the middle UP and the top DOWN or just bring the top DOWN even more.

The government should be on board with it (if they weren't so corrupt) because they could leverage more tax revenue from ALL. 

• Lower class with higher wages resulting in more consumer spending == more income tax revenue. 
• Middle class with higher wages and higher income/sales resulting from more tax incentives and more consumer spending == more tax revenue. 
• Upper class with higher taxes and less deductions/incentives giving back money they can actually afford to give back == more tax revenue.

 

EDIT:  By upper class, I am talking about varying degrees of lowered tax deduction qualification whereas companies like Amazon can't deduct their entire income and just feed it back into the business after paying all their employees (including Bezos).  I'm not talking about taxing the family that barely makes it into the upper class at the same level as you would someone like Bezos.  Likewise throughout the tax structure.  IMO what hurts us the most is where those who truly don't need the financial benefit have the absolute greatest financial benefit of all.  Sure all things are relative, but not 140 BILLION relative.

[hammer4reel]

3 hours ago, Haskell_Hunter said:

Oh, no, I know why.  I study and teach business and economics.  It's as clear as the nose on my face.

The market sets prices based on supply and demand.  When you artificially inflate wages, that cost gets passed on to consumers.  When you create regulations that increase the cost of doing business, those costs get passed on to consumers.

Companies must remain profitable or else they cease to exist.  If your costs increase, you increase your prices.  Economics 101.

That's business economic . Not economics of people living here and what it takes as the bare minimum to get by .

Why should everyone get taxed more to support handouts  so that a small business owner doesn't have to pay a fair wage ..

It's the whole picture you need to look at .

Sure a business has to make a profit to employ workers.  

But they wanna make 15 points in a market that 8 is doing good .

 

[hammer4reel]

3 hours ago, Haskell_Hunter said:

These words come from people who have never run a business or managed a profitable project.  I refer to these people as....morons.

Yea I'm a moron .

Currently have run and completed  over 200 million dollars worth of electrical work without a loser .

I think I know what it takes .

Pay a guy a fair pay you get 150% out of them .

Nickel and dime him  costs you ten times as much in productivity.

 

[BowhunterNJ]

1 minute ago, hammer4reel said:

Pay a guy a fair pay you get 150% out of them .

Nickel and dime him  costs you ten times as much in productivity.

 

There is truth to this.  No doubt. 

[hammer4reel]

44 minutes ago, BowhunterNJ said:

There is truth to this.  No doubt. 

 Real simple, you pay a guy to learn  to work your business.

sure he cant make top pay while your teaching him.

but don't pay him enough and he ends up leaving .

Pay him a little extra, he is more willing to learn, and you don't waste 6 months or a year in training .To just have to retrain a new employee when he leaves to your competition .

constant turnover is the death of most small businesses.

 

A person has to make enough money to get by, paying for a place to live, a car to drive and the rest of normal bills.

Low pay means they have to live local to just get by.

Cant hire from out of state as the commute will cost most than the pay.

so when they cant make ends meets the rest of us get taxed  to give them the extra they need to get by.

But were taxed probably 100 dollars for every dollar that reaches them ( due to horrible Government management .)

That why I feel paying them more hourly in the end costs less in the big picture

 

 

 

 

[hammer4reel]

2 hours ago, buckhound said:

educate me if i am wrong but isn't this kind of how we got where we are? low and middle class workers wanting more money wages increasing thus causing  the price of product to rise unfortunatley it seems as though the cost of living is rising faster than  wages...so does raising wages truly help? to me it seems like the first step should be to figure out how to balance the cost of  living and wages....I remember as a kid most people i knew took vacations  or had family outings on the weekends some  had barbques , parties holiday gatherings now that same class of people can barely survive...

IMO we got here because we don't make anything here anymore.

our country has lost all that revenue that used to be  respent here.

Most people looking for the bargains they get from products coming from over seas,

but the money spent ends up helping the over seas countries and not our own.

 

 

[vdep217]

35 minutes ago, hammer4reel said:

 Real simple, you pay a guy to learn  to work your business.

sure he cant make top pay while your teaching him.

but don't pay him enough and he ends up leaving .

Pay him a little extra, he is more willing to learn, and you don't waste 6 months or a year in training .To just have to retrain a new employee when he leaves to your competition .

constant turnover is the death of most small businesses.

 

A person has to make enough money to get by, paying for a place to live, a car to drive and the rest of normal bills.

Low pay means they have to live local to just get by.

Cant hire from out of state as the commute will cost most than the pay.

so when they cant make ends meets the rest of us get taxed  to give them the extra they need to get by.

But were taxed probably 100 dollars for every dollar that reaches them ( due to horrible Government management .)

That why I feel paying them more hourly in the end costs less in the big picture

 

 

 

 

Hammer I agree to a point of a fair wage..  but where do we draw the line of fair wage..  those people who are struggling now most will still struggle because no one lives within there means any more..  every one has to have the latest and greatest toys and cell phones etc. .  I too have made more than 15 dollars an hour since hi school but I worked and proved my self worth..  I lived within my means and now can enjoy the nice things in life...  no doubt people will benefit from it but in the grand scheme most will still be in the same position..   because of this it will be an endless cycle.   People will always want more pay..  

  In the end fair pay is relative to who you talk to..  what I think is fair for one job you might think less is fair etc...  i don't believe we will ever reach a number that every one believes is fair..

  Also look at it this way wich I didn't see mentioned this bis America and we choose oout career paths and there is no limit to what we can be and become..  look at the countries that you take a bbc test and you are put in a bracket and that is the jobs you can have at that pay they have determined..  sometimes we have to be careful for what we wish for as eventually onb this cycle those countries that do that to people could be our reality

Edited January 22, 2019 by vdep217

[hammer4reel]

11 minutes ago, vdep217 said:

Hammer I agree to a point of a fair wage..  but where do we draw the line of fair wage..  those people who are struggling now most will still struggle because no one lives within there means any more..  every one has to have the latest and greatest toys and cell phones etc. .  I too have made more than 15 dollars an hour since hi school but I worked and proved my self worth..  I lived within my means and now can enjoy the nice things in life...  no doubt people will benefit from it but in the grand scheme most will still be in the same position..   because of this it will be an endless cycle.   People will always want more pay..  

  In the end fair pay is relative to who you talk to..  what I think is fair for one job you might think less is fair etc...  i don't believe we will ever reach a number that every one believes is fair..

  Also look at it this way wich I didn't see mentioned this bis America and we choose oout career paths and there is no limit to what we can be and become..  look at the countries that you take a bbc test and you are put in a bracket and that is the jobs you can have at that pay they have determined..  sometimes we have to be careful for what we wish for as eventually onb this cycle those countries that do that to people could be our reality

I agree with parts, but think about it like this .

Minimum wage just has never kept up with all the rest of COL for way too long.

Its only really doubled in 40 years.

Yet cars have gone up  10 X

Houses are currently about 4X

taxes are higher, and health insurance has more than doubled.

SO compared to even 1980 at 3.25 per hour, we could live better than these people do today.

 

Everyones cost of living probably has gone to just the price of gas, and everything that's got up has comeout of pocket.

 

Just curious too  why is it that illegal day laborers have no problem getting paid a hundred bucks a day or more.

yet we want to pay people that actually pay taxes even less than them ????

[Coyoteslayer]

8 hours ago, hammer4reel said:

Bullshit. 

It's because business don't want to pay enough is why those working are taxed to the gills to pay for all the handouts.

Fair pay for a fair  days work .

Anyone thinking 15 bucks an hour is a high wage is an idiot.

I feel bad for anyone that has to try and support a family on those wages.

You can barely live comfortably on 100 grand in My and want someone else to  do it on 30

Think about what positions currently pay minimum wage. Gas station clerk, Walmart, etc. we all do what we gotta do to make ends meet. It’s not up to the government to dictate wages. It’s up to us to accept a wage or do something else. We all have options. 

[Haskell_Hunter]

7 hours ago, archer36 said:

I'm glad you are not my Teacher. LOL. What happened to technology, efficiency, and innovation? That's what keeps a business viable. Not exploiting workers. I'm sure there are Nobel Prize winners in economics that can support both sides of the discussion. Just because you teach doesn't mean you are right.  It all comes down to opinion in the end. 

Not only do I teach, I own my own business and do business consulting.

And technology, efficiency, and innovation don't keep business viable.  There's a lot more to it than that.

It's also less about my opinion.  Economics functions like the laws of physics.  Many things are predictable such as if you inject more money into an economic system prices go up.  It's called inflation.  You can artificially inflate the price of something into the stratosphere by making more money available.  You think it's odd that college costs have gone through the roof?  They have because the government has made getting access to money very easy.  Now that more money is available to college students, they can afford to pay more.  Prices go up.

The price of education has gone through the roof and its because there is more money available pay for it.  The cost of education has exceeded the rate of inflation, meaning something artificially inflated the price.  What, you ask?  More money.

[Haskell_Hunter]

4 hours ago, hammer4reel said:

Yea I'm a moron .

Currently have run and completed  over 200 million dollars worth of electrical work without a loser .

I think I know what it takes .

Pay a guy a fair pay you get 150% out of them .

Nickel and dime him  costs you ten times as much in productivity.

 

I never said anything about not paying a fair wage.  You've already said you pay people what you think they are worth, and that's great.  You as a business owner have the ability to do that.  They government doesn't tell you what to pay your workers, you pay them what you want.

But if you think setting the minimum wage will give people the ability to have a better standard of living, you're wrong.  All it does is raise the price of everything else.  Those people making $15/hr. will end up paying proportionally the same for goods and services in the end.  More disposable income in an economic system triggers inflation.

You are doing what I prefer to do:  Pay someone a fair market wage for the work being done.  The market decides the wages based on the kind of work, the worker's experience, and the quality of their work.  If the worker thinks it's equitable for them, take the job.  If not, look for another one.  You'd never take an electrical gig that isn't equitable, why should a worker take a job that isn't?  It's the same kind of thing.  Maybe my perspective is different because I work for myself and refuse to be anyone's employee anymore.

[Haskell_Hunter]

4 hours ago, hammer4reel said:

That's business economic . Not economics of people living here and what it takes as the bare minimum to get by .

Why should everyone get taxed more to support handouts  so that a small business owner doesn't have to pay a fair wage ..

It's the whole picture you need to look at .

Sure a business has to make a profit to employ workers.  

But they wanna make 15 points in a market that 8 is doing good .

 

I'm going to pick this apart.

It's economics.  Trying to differentiate between business economics and personal economics is a distraction.

I find it interesting that you are vilifying small business owners as being the problem with paying a fair wage. And where do you get this information from?  I think you are mistaken.  Also, please define for me what a "fair wage" actually is.  What does a "fair wage" buy?  What would a "fair wage" be in NJ?  And why is that value a "fair wage"?  Most people who argue for a "fair wage" have no ability to actually define it in quantitate terms.  So I'd like to hear your definition of it.  And it has to be more than "you gotta' eat".  I'm looking for a number.  $30K for a single person?  $60K for a couple?  $75K married with two kids?  Do they own or rent?  I think you'll find it incredibly difficult to define what a "fair wage" actually is.

And you end by implying that it's wrong to maximize profits.  The whole point of the stock market, your investment portfolio, your retirement holdings, and other stuff is to maximize value and profits.  And somehow you think this is a bad thing?

[birdshotnj]

I said it earlier and I just want to repeat it again because I like hearing myself talk....BUSINESSES WILL CLOSE AND LEAVE NJ, COMPANIES WILL SHIFT TO AUTOMATION AND THE NJ UNEMPLOYMENT RATE WILL SOAR! you dont like "picking up the slack of your local business" wait til the unemployment rate is well into double digits. The Democrats will have their hands buried so far up our assholes and in our pockets you'll cough out their fingernails