Speed versus momentum

[not on the rug]

5 minutes ago, vdep217 said:

Sorry I meant most bows with coc head will punch yes tuning is a definite must.  When I shot 45lbs at  13 and a 2blade coc I had no issues with the scapula unless hi and foward wich again is almost out of vitals

For sure. 

Probably aluminum arrows though,  right?  Way heavier than carbon...

[Hitemnasty]

26 minutes ago, Lunatic said:

Just because I disagree with you does not meant I think you are dumb or am trying to make you look dumb. No need for hostility. 

No hostility really. Yea it annoyed me a bit when you bashed my comparison so I started typing like crazy haha. I’ve read and watched hours and hours on the pros and cons. From what I’ve been seeing the past 4-5 years is a sway towards heavier setups with two blade coc. 

[Scotty155]

In my opinion, your always going to have extremists on either side of the arrow weight question.  In some cases the selection of a far heavier arrow may be warranted depending on many variables.  In some cases a lighter arrow may be warranted.   

For me personally,  after shooting many different arrow weights, varying FOC, shaft diameters, into ballistic gel I settled on a 483 grain arrow.

In my case the far heavier arrows resulted in a small increase in penetration but did not outweigh the significant arrow drop at distances beyond 30yds.   Although I did not run the varying tested arrow weights through a chrono, the reduction in arrow speed with the heavier arrow weights (>550 grain) was noticeable.  The speed reduction had me thinking many deer would have the chance to duck the arrow and result in a poor shot or missed shot.  Based on my draw weight and length (65lbs / 29.5) 483 grains appeared for me to be best of all worlds, dampened shot noise, good penetration, great arrow trajectory at distance, good speed.  Balance is key in my opinion.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Scotty155

[Rusty]

2 hours ago, BCsaw said:

You still have lawn darts? :-)

OK that was funny!  

Thank you for a well needed belly laugh!   

[Haskell_Hunter]

8 minutes ago, Hitemnasty said:

They can’t be?

If the nail and the toothpick are the same size and mass, they have the same kinetic energy and force.  They will have the same momentum and accuracy, and arguably, the same ability to penetrate.  The difference is in the materials.  The nail, being metal, would pass through the target and retain more of its kinetic energy.  The toothpick, being wood, would transfer nearly all of its kinetic energy into the target because it would probably disintegrate when it hit and penetrated (to some extent) the target.  The key thing to determine this is the velocity both are traveling at, and that is very important.

You can take a bullet and throw it at someone and it bounces off.  Take the same bullet and fire it out of a gun, it's a big difference.

So if I assume both objects (the nail and the toothpick) are traveling at a velocity that allows both to penetrate, there is one particular outcome.  However, if the nail and the toothpick are traveling at a slower velocity, there would be a different outcome due to the materials both are made with.

When mass and size are constant, it is velocity that becomes the determining factor.

[Hitemnasty]

44 minutes ago, vdep217 said:

I think the point being made is building an arrow to punch through bone is a bad idea because the bone some what covering the vitals is the scapula and almost any set up should punch that heavy bone is foward the vitals unless Taking low percentage shots of quartering to.  But is usefull for having an exit through off side shoulder bone if needed

I shoot a heavy arrow with both coc 2 blade and 2 expandables rocky mountain switch blade best of both worlds in mY opinion and am confident in them.

I’ve been shooting heavy arrows for well over a decade, starting out tipped with muzzy 125. I’ve punched through a 2.5 year old bucks scapula with about ten inches penetration. That deer dropped in ten yards because the as he moved the arrow shredded his vitals. 

[Lunatic]

5 minutes ago, Hitemnasty said:

No hostility really. Yea it annoyed me a bit when you bashed my comparison so I started typing like crazy haha. I’ve read and watched hours and hours on the pros and cons. From what I’ve been seeing the past 4-5 years is a sway towards heavier setups with two blade coc. 

No worries, it’s all good. 
 

[vdep217]

9 minutes ago, Hitemnasty said:

If you’re hitting scapula most likely the hits already too high. I’m thinking more leg bones on lower angle shots. With the right setups a quarter to shot isn’t low percentage at all it’s actually quite devastating! So IMO building a head for a gut/liver shot is a horrible idea because those heads make you aim farther back so bones aren’t hit. Few inches forward and animal isnt really going anywhere. 

I agree mostly but a quartering to I would only take under certain conditions and have with great success but would not advocate them.  I'll see if I can find pics I used to shoot quadpro heads out od my 60 lb red head bow and broke leg bones alot.  But honestly there is no substitute for a properly tuned bow and matched arrow that you have confidence in.

[JHbowhunter]

Just now, Lunatic said:

No worries, it’s all good. 
 

I just love these self-moderation moments! 

[Rusty]

1 minute ago, JHbowhunter said:

I just love these self-moderation moments! 

I agree, who needs us?  Matt you are waisting your money!  Get rid of those silly useless mods!  

[Scotty155]

6 minutes ago, Hitemnasty said:

I’ve been shooting heavy arrows for well over a decade, starting out tipped with muzzy 125. I’ve punched through a 2.5 year old bucks scapula with about ten inches penetration. That deer dropped in ten yards because the as he moved the arrow shredded his vitals. 

What arrow weight are you shooting?

[Hitemnasty]

1 minute ago, Haskell_Hunter said:

If the nail and the toothpick are the same size and mass, they have the same kinetic energy and force.  They will have the same momentum and accuracy, and arguably, the same ability to penetrate.  The difference is in the materials.  The nail, being metal, would pass through the target and retain more of its kinetic energy.  The toothpick, being wood, would transfer nearly all of its kinetic energy into the target because it would probably disintegrate when it hit and penetrated (to some extent) the target.  The key thing to determine this is the velocity both are traveling at, and that is very important.

You can take a bullet and throw it at someone and it bounces off.  Take the same bullet and fire it out of a gun, it's a big difference.

So if I assume both objects (the nail and the toothpick) are traveling at a velocity that allows both to penetrate, there is one particular outcome.  However, if the nail and the toothpick are traveling at a slower velocity, there would be a different outcome due to the materials both are made with.

When mass and size are constant, it is velocity that becomes the determining factor.

I like your point of view but I think you’re leaving out a key point? I think you’re saying what it would do instantly after release. But what happens down range? The finish nail can be thrown farther and when it hits something it’s going to penetrate farther and or leave a bigger mark. The toothpick is going to loose momentum quickly and then any outside factors like wind is going to throw it off track more so because of the momentum loss. No one ever without but maybe a serious tailwind threw a toothpick farther than a finish nail. 
 

In all sincerity, am I wrong about that?

[Haskell_Hunter]

2 minutes ago, Hitemnasty said:

I like your point of view but I think you’re leaving out a key point? I think you’re saying what it would do instantly after release. But what happens down range? The finish nail can be thrown farther and when it hits something it’s going to penetrate farther and or leave a bigger mark. The toothpick is going to loose momentum quickly and then any outside factors like wind is going to throw it off track more so because of the momentum loss. No one ever without but maybe a serious tailwind threw a toothpick farther than a finish nail. 
 

In all sincerity, am I wrong about that?

When you said mass and size are the same, I assumed it was the mass and size of both the nail and the toothpick would be the same.  If so, the effects of external forces (wind, etc.) would be the same for both in-flight.  Impact would be different because of the strength of the materials— the nail being metal and the toothpick being wood—would have different results.

However, if you took a standard nail and a standard toothpick, each being a different size and weight, then external forces would very much have a different effect on both.  And I assume in that model velocity would be the constant between the two.

[Hitemnasty]

10 minutes ago, Scotty155 said:

What arrow weight are you shooting?

Shooting 500 right now with a 29 inch arrow and 15%FOC with 60 lbs draw weight. Looking to bump it up another hundred up front but the cost of testing is high and I’ve been having great results for many years with it. So next season maybe. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Hitemnasty

[not on the rug]

40 minutes ago, Scotty155 said:

In my opinion, your always going to have extremists on either side of the arrow weight question.  In some cases the selection of a far heavier arrow may be warranted depending on many variables.  In some cases a lighter arrow may be warranted.   

For me personally,  after shooting many different arrow weights, varying FOC, shaft diameters, into ballistic gel I settled on a 483 grain arrow.

In my case the far heavier arrows resulted in a small increase in penetration but did not outweigh the significant arrow drop at distances beyond 30yds.   Although I did not run the varying tested arrow weights through a chrono, the reduction in arrow speed with the heavier arrow weights (>550 grain) was noticeable.  The speed reduction had me thinking many deer would have the chance to duck the arrow and result in a poor shot or missed shot.  Based on my draw weight and length (65lbs / 29.5) 483 grains appeared for me to be best of all worlds, dampened shot noise, good penetration, great arrow trajectory at distance, good speed.  Balance is key in my opinion.

Excellent analysis.   Couple things to think about...

1-what are traditional shooters doing?  Even with your "heavy" setup, trad guys are still successfully hunting deer and have been for literally thousands of years.  I think the fear of deer ducking the string is a bit overblown sometimes.  

2-a heavier draw weight and longer draw length is going to produce alot of KE and a lot of momentum.   You have an instant advantage over most folks right off the bat

3-how many shots do you take at deer that are over 30 yards away?  This is very individualized based on a hunter's experience, the areas they hunt and even where they are hunting geographically.  In NJ, most folks are shooting 20 yards or so for 99% of their shots

Edited August 26, 2021 by not on the rug