Speed versus momentum

[archer36]

24 minutes ago, hammer4reel said:

That same arrow wastes twice as much energy into the 10” of ground on the offside of the deer .

too many guys way over think the heavy arrow .

it’s an arrow, not a lawn dart 

If the arrow does penetrate 10" into the ground then I would say it was more than needed at the time, but not wasted. Nice to have more HP if needed. I shot through a deer last year with my Stealth NXT (about 390 fps) at 30 yds and it buried to the ferrule in a live hardwood tree. That doesn't make me want to get a lesser bow. Shot through a deer from a ground blind with my Bear Torrix (about 340 fps) at 30 yds and it landed 60 yds  behind the deer (slightly uphill). Doesn't want to make me get a 300 fps bow. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by archer36

[hammer4reel]

21 minutes ago, not on the rug said:

Too many guys think in absolutes.  You don't need a 350g arrow...but you don't need a 700g arrow either.  Plenty of middle ground in there for most big game hunters. 

Also, energy isn't "wasted" if it blows through a deer.  The arrow did it's job.  Saying the energy is wasted is silly.  

Build a "plan B" arrow...one that will do it's job in case you miss the mark

An arrow going 10” didn’t deliver all it could .

an arrow kills by hemorrhage. Use a bigger broadhead and gain maximum cut with enough energy to get a pass through . 
 

Plan b should be the largest cut in an off area . 
worrying about breaking bones ona whitetail is the dumbest thought ever . 
 

why anyone would want to damage a deer more in a non lethal hit breaking bones makes zero sense 

[Hitemnasty]

34 minutes ago, hammer4reel said:

That same arrow wastes twice as much energy into the 10” of ground on the offside of the deer .

too many guys way over think the heavy arrow .

it’s an arrow, not a lawn dart 

Arrows aren't bullets and I'm sure you know a arrow kills by hemorrhaging (not by energy in the sense you're meaning, though more downrange energy means more KE and more momentum) and bullets kill more by shock. So the father a broadhead moves through the animal the more hemorrhaging thats going to take place, when plan A fails for a easy ribcage pass through plan B is to make the arrow work in the hunters favor. Maybe even getting a passthrough after hitting bones. Pass throughs lead to better blood trails. Too many guys way under think a heavy arrow and way over think speed for flatter trajectory. 

What would you rather be hit with, a golf ball or a pingpong ball?

Its a arrow, not a toothpick

[archer36]

Wasted energy can be applied to firearm hunting too. How many guys hunting PA with a rifle use 6.5, .270, .308, 30.06, 45.70, and magnum calibers, etc when a 30.30 will do. It's only wasted until you need it. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by archer36

[Lunatic]

10 minutes ago, Hitemnasty said:

Arrows aren't bullets and I'm sure you know a arrow kills by hemorrhaging (not by energy in the sense you're meaning, though more downrange energy means more KE and more momentum) and bullets kill more by shock. So the father a broadhead moves through the animal the more hemorrhaging thats going to take place, when plan A fails for a easy ribcage pass through plan B is to make the arrow work in the hunters favor. Maybe even getting a passthrough after hitting bones. Pass throughs lead to better blood trails. Too many guys way under think a heavy arrow and way over think speed for flatter trajectory. 

What would you rather be hit with, a golf ball or a pingpong ball?

Its a arrow, not a toothpick

Neither golf ball or ping pong ball is passing through your body. Poor comparison IMO. 
Do you think wider pass through cut gives you more chance of survival than a very narrow cut? What would cause more hemorrhaging? 

[Hitemnasty]

1 minute ago, Lunatic said:

Neither golf ball or ping pong ball is passing through your body. Poor comparison IMO. 
Do you think wider pass through cut gives you more chance of survival than a very narrow cut? What would cause more hemorrhaging? 

The comparison is momentum and kinetic energy not whats going to passthrough haha but nice try trying to make me look dumb! What is carrying more energy down range and whats going to hurt more when hit with it or whats going to leave a bigger dent. Lets not split hairs over comparisons... but I'll humor you just because its what you want! Shoot a finish nail and shoot toothpick out of whatever, both same size and mass whats going to carry its momentum down range with more accuracy and penetrate? I think we all know the answer. 

I think a wider cut gives you less chance of a passthrough specially after hitting anything hard, mechanical blades are garbage steel and won't hold a edge and withstand bone hits so less hemorrhaging. I think most deer hit with a narrow head and clean passthrough are far more likely not to bolt off a hundred MPH. 

So the argument I hear for wide blades is for a plan B senario but they're only good for a farther back hit and not for any kind of bone or heavy muscle. Now a narrow head with a heavy properly tuned setup can destroy any bones it comes across and also if the hit is back in the liver and guts its not creating a shock that makes the deer runoff faster than maybe it would if something zipped right through. allowing again for a potentially easier recovery. The amount of video out there of wide blades only making it halfway through a deer on a broadside ribcage shot are disturbing IMO! Wide cutting broad heads don't put deer down faster and jury is still out if they actually create better blood trails.

So enlighten me on how a light flimsy spined arrow with a 2 inch wide head, little to no FOC thats going to flex like crazy taking away penetration is better than a heavy head setup with high FOC, stiffer spine and a slimmer head pulling through the animal rather than pushing isn't better? IMO hunters using light weight setups with big heads are poorly educated on the subject.

 

[vdep217]

8 minutes ago, Hitemnasty said:

The comparison is momentum and kinetic energy not whats going to passthrough haha but nice try trying to make me look dumb! What is carrying more energy down range and whats going to hurt more when hit with it or whats going to leave a bigger dent. Lets not split hairs over comparisons... but I'll humor you just because its what you want! Shoot a finish nail and shoot toothpick out of whatever, both same size and mass whats going to carry its momentum down range with more accuracy and penetrate? I think we all know the answer. 

I think a wider cut gives you less chance of a passthrough specially after hitting anything hard, mechanical blades are garbage steel and won't hold a edge and withstand bone hits so less hemorrhaging. I think most deer hit with a narrow head and clean passthrough are far more likely not to bolt off a hundred MPH. 

So the argument I hear for wide blades is for a plan B senario but they're only good for a farther back hit and not for any kind of bone or heavy muscle. Now a narrow head with a heavy properly tuned setup can destroy any bones it comes across and also if the hit is back in the liver and guts its not creating a shock that makes the deer runoff faster than maybe it would if something zipped right through. allowing again for a potentially easier recovery. The amount of video out there of wide blades only making it halfway through a deer on a broadside ribcage shot are disturbing IMO! Wide cutting broad heads don't put deer down faster and jury is still out if they actually create better blood trails.

So enlighten me on how a light flimsy spined arrow with a 2 inch wide head, little to no FOC thats going to flex like crazy taking away penetration is better than a heavy head setup with high FOC, stiffer spine and a slimmer head pulling through the animal rather than pushing isn't better? IMO hunters using light weight setups with big heads are poorly educated on the subject.

 

I think the point being made is building an arrow to punch through bone is a bad idea because the bone some what covering the vitals is the scapula and almost any set up should punch that heavy bone is foward the vitals unless Taking low percentage shots of quartering to.  But is usefull for having an exit through off side shoulder bone if needed

I shoot a heavy arrow with both coc 2 blade and 2 expandables rocky mountain switch blade best of both worlds in mY opinion and am confident in them.

Edited August 26, 2021 by vdep217

[not on the rug]

1 hour ago, hammer4reel said:

An arrow going 10” didn’t deliver all it could .

an arrow kills by hemorrhage. Use a bigger broadhead and gain maximum cut with enough energy to get a pass through . 
 

Plan b should be the largest cut in an off area . 
worrying about breaking bones ona whitetail is the dumbest thought ever . 
 

why anyone would want to damage a deer more in a non lethal hit breaking bones makes zero sense 

Why not shoot a heavy arrow AND a medium or large broadhead? 

Again...more all or nothing silliness

Plan B means in case you hit the scapula. 

Also remember that not everyone can draw 70lbs or even 60 lbs and not everyone has a 29 or 30" draw either.  Plenty of folks out there shooting 50lbs and 27" or less draw lengths.  They NEED a heavier arrow to get "normal " penetration in the first place

Edited August 26, 2021 by not on the rug

[JHbowhunter]

how did a video of a fat guy blowing through a blow-up pool end up in arguments over Kinetic energy and what arrows and broadheads are best.   Who is the a-hole that steered the converstation that direction?  

 

[Haskell_Hunter]

17 minutes ago, Hitemnasty said:

The comparison is momentum and kinetic energy not whats going to passthrough haha but nice try trying to make me look dumb! What is carrying more energy down range and whats going to hurt more when hit with it or whats going to leave a bigger dent. Lets not split hairs over comparisons... but I'll humor you just because its what you want! Shoot a finish nail and shoot toothpick out of whatever, both same size and mass whats going to carry its momentum down range with more accuracy and penetrate? I think we all know the answer. 

If both are the same size and mass....

[Lunatic]

27 minutes ago, Hitemnasty said:

The comparison is momentum and kinetic energy not whats going to passthrough haha but nice try trying to make me look dumb! What is carrying more energy down range and whats going to hurt more when hit with it or whats going to leave a bigger dent. Lets not split hairs over comparisons... but I'll humor you just because its what you want! Shoot a finish nail and shoot toothpick out of whatever, both same size and mass whats going to carry its momentum down range with more accuracy and penetrate? I think we all know the answer. 

I think a wider cut gives you less chance of a passthrough specially after hitting anything hard, mechanical blades are garbage steel and won't hold a edge and withstand bone hits so less hemorrhaging. I think most deer hit with a narrow head and clean passthrough are far more likely not to bolt off a hundred MPH. 

So the argument I hear for wide blades is for a plan B senario but they're only good for a farther back hit and not for any kind of bone or heavy muscle. Now a narrow head with a heavy properly tuned setup can destroy any bones it comes across and also if the hit is back in the liver and guts its not creating a shock that makes the deer runoff faster than maybe it would if something zipped right through. allowing again for a potentially easier recovery. The amount of video out there of wide blades only making it halfway through a deer on a broadside ribcage shot are disturbing IMO! Wide cutting broad heads don't put deer down faster and jury is still out if they actually create better blood trails.

So enlighten me on how a light flimsy spined arrow with a 2 inch wide head, little to no FOC thats going to flex like crazy taking away penetration is better than a heavy head setup with high FOC, stiffer spine and a slimmer head pulling through the animal rather than pushing isn't better? IMO hunters using light weight setups with big heads are poorly educated on the subject.

 

Just because I disagree with you does not meant I think you are dumb or am trying to make you look dumb. No need for hostility. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Lunatic

[not on the rug]

14 minutes ago, vdep217 said:

I think the point being made is building an arrow to punch through bone is a bad idea because the bone some what covering the vitals is the scapula and almost any set up should punch that heavy bone is foward the vitals unless Taking low percentage shots of quartering to.  But is usefull for having an exit through off side shoulder bone if needed

I shoot a heavy arrow with both coc 2 blade and 2 expandables rocky mountain switch blade best of both worlds in mY opinion and am confident in them.

I disagree.   Most setups  (especially poorly tuned/untuned bows  and arrows) will not punch through a scapula.  Like I mentioned above, most folks don't shoot heavy draw weights and have super long draw lengths.  Toss in the fact that most folks are shooting expandible heads (which they probably don't even make enough KE to be shooting) and that arrow is 100% not punching through a scapula

[vdep217]

9 minutes ago, not on the rug said:

I disagree.   Most setups  (especially poorly tuned/untuned bows  and arrows) will not punch through a scapula.  Like I mentioned above, most folks don't shoot heavy draw weights and have super long draw lengths.  Toss in the fact that most folks are shooting expandible heads (which they probably don't even make enough KE to be shooting) and that arrow is 100% not punching through a scapula

Sorry I meant most bows with coc head will punch yes tuning is a definite must.  When I shot 45lbs at  13 and a 2blade coc I had no issues with the scapula unless hi and foward wich again is almost out of vitals

[Hitemnasty]

19 minutes ago, Haskell_Hunter said:

If both are the same size and mass....

They can’t be?

[Hitemnasty]

31 minutes ago, vdep217 said:

I think the point being made is building an arrow to punch through bone is a bad idea because the bone some what covering the vitals is the scapula and almost any set up should punch that heavy bone is foward the vitals unless Taking low percentage shots of quartering to.  But is usefull for having an exit through off side shoulder bone if needed

I shoot a heavy arrow with both coc 2 blade and 2 expandables rocky mountain switch blade best of both worlds in mY opinion and am confident in them.

If you’re hitting scapula most likely the hits already too high. I’m thinking more leg bones on lower angle shots. With the right setups a quarter to shot isn’t low percentage at all it’s actually quite devastating! So IMO building a head for a gut/liver shot is a horrible idea because those heads make you aim farther back so bones aren’t hit. Few inches forward and animal isnt really going anywhere.