Baiting for deer

[Lunatic]

3 hours ago, Pathman said:

V, with all due respect, the unawareness of most about what it takes to truly manage deer is incredible. “Showing the effort” is what we all complain so vehemently about when politicians do it regarding our gun rights etc., it’s the same feel good BS when it comes to allowing recreational hunters to manage deer. 
So many guys believe that if you let a few hunters on a property with a very high density to recreationally hunt, that’s “managing” the deer population. That is an absolute fallacy, and will do absolutely nothing to decrease the deer population on that property. 
I didn’t want to get into this, but in the interest of possibly making more hunters aware of the difference between management and hunting, I’ll dive in a bit. 
So, the first big hurdle to true deer management, is to require all participants to shoot females only. This would eliminate 80-90% of the recreational hunters simply looking for access to hunting land to shoot a buck with no real regard or understanding of what the management implications are. 
After you've weeded out the trophy hunters, you then can implement a system where, after taking out a certain number of females, you can then take a buck as an incentive. However,  this is all based on the data collected that will determine how many deer need to be removed from the property in order to have a real impact. 
Having the land open to recreational hunting, has no practical impact whatsoever in an overpopulated location.

You need data, you need an accurate survey of the deer per sq. mile, and you need to determine your harvest quotas based on your data. Just allowing a few guys in to hunt, and they then use their own criteria for what they want to shoot and when, is a useless proposition in a management program. 
I could go on and on, but I’ll just say that believing that recreational hunters can manage a property to the land owners requirements and satisfaction based on their data (not what the hunter feels is the right way to manage, because 90% would simply manage it so that they can shoot big bucks) is a fantasy. 
Im not even going to get into the guys here that suggest hunters should be allowed to access towns and neighborhoods where the deer population is too high, and that they should be allowed open access to simply hunt peoples yards and parks! That’s for another day, but suffice it to say, that’s another fantasy that would have disastrous effects on hunting in general. 
Any type of management program needs to be controlled, participants need to be vetted, qualified, and proficiency tested, and clear management goals and strategies need to be in place. 
Otherwise you’re just wasting your, and the landowners time while the deer continue to do damage. 
 

Not to mention the logistics of signing up and having let say 12 guys on your private property. You sign up 12, all 12 show up on opening day and then you end up with 2 or 3 hunting with some consistency. This is the reality. I am hunting private lease farm for over 15 years now and its the same thing year after year. Recreational hunters hunt when the feel like it, when they have time, when the wife lets them, when they can afford it. Most of the time something gets in the way of recreational time and simply put they don't hunt.
BTW they are the best members IMO

[JFC1]

5 hours ago, nickmarch said:

FW are up to something.  There are already numerous regs on the books that deal with this stuff.  There isn't a need to make the changes they plan on making.

Someone might want to look at the pdf again to figure out the fee changes.  It said something about charging more for permits.  I think the fee was from $28 to $56?  It said something about the higher fee allows hunting in all zones in a reg set instead of just one zone.  I breezed thru that too.  Someone else can figure it out.

Yes, $56 allows hunting in all zones in one reg set. So in my case I now pay $56 to hunt two zones in one reg set but under the proposed rules I'd have access to 6 zones for the same price-the change doesn't necessarily add up to greater income for the state and costs to the hunter. That is, unless the state has done some sort of analysis of how many of us actually pay for multiple zones within a reg set vs. those who hunt only a single zone and who would then be paying $56 rather than $28 for that right.  For me, it's a great deal. 

[nickmarch]

17 minutes ago, JFC1 said:

Yes, $56 allows hunting in all zones in one reg set. So in my case I now pay $56 to hunt two zones in one reg set but under the proposed rules I'd have access to 6 zones for the same price-the change doesn't necessarily add up to greater income for the state and costs to the hunter. That is, unless the state has done some sort of analysis of how many of us actually pay for multiple zones within a reg set vs. those who hunt only a single zone and who would then be paying $56 rather than $28 for that right.  For me, it's a great deal. 

What reg set are you in?

[Fred Flintstone]

I am told that Deercorn works wonders.

[Pathman]

4 hours ago, vdep217 said:

We did not but every thing you are explaining could be used to say the depradation permits are useless as well unless they do the same you describe about surveys etc.  As they shoot even at night the pressure would keep them away creating tge same issues you describe.

  Not arguing just debating is all there has got to be some form of a happy medium

What you’re overlooking is the huge numbers of deer that can be killed at night by a handful of shooters. That’s how the farmers get around not having survey data, the data they use is the amount of crop damage they have relative to how many deer they see. 
The number of deer that can be killed on a few nights by good shooters is far beyond what a group of recreational hunters could do in many seasons. So while the recreational guys are deciding when/if/what buck to shoot, the herd is continuing to reproduce and grow. 
There’s simply no comparison between to two methods regarding impact and effectiveness. 
 

The “happy medium” you mention, is what WMAs should provide (that’s a whole nother discussion entirely!) or on a private farm that is managed properly, and not just for big bucks. 

[tcook8296]

8 hours ago, bucky said:

Ok , we will keep it fair for all, how about a $28.00 trespassers permit

Only if you can shoot 2 at a time and unlimited

[tcook8296]

8 hours ago, Lunatic said:

Hunting in these situations will never work. Hunters would never take enough to make a difference. Letting enough people with weapons on your private property to attempt to make a difference is not practical or safe, not to mention the headaches of having strangers with guns on your property.

Its real safe having farmers with a spot light launching slugs in the darkness. 

You cant see beyond your target. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by tcook8296

[Bucksnbows]

11 hours ago, hunterbob1 said:

I always thought it wasn't about the money they did it for the cause. Boy was I wrong. They make more money than most teachers Leo's and First responders.

https://www.gamewardenedu.org/new-jersey/#salary

NJ is having a huge issue hiring and training new COs only to have them leave to other states for better pay. Fact. It is often discussed at Council meetings. If you think $60k is a lot of coin, then God bless you. It is below the poverty line for a family of four.....

[tcook8296]

6 hours ago, nickmarch said:

Farmer depreciation permits are usually given and used outside of the hunting season and have rules they must follow.  They can kill as many deer as they kill. There isn't a limit.  They can kill them 24 hours a day. They can't keep antlers. They can spotlight and shoot from vehicles.   I think they have to use shotguns?  I'm sure I'm forgetting something?

 

The farmer across from me shoots deer at night from their trucks on the road from around July into Dec this year in addition to their normal hunting. And they do keep the antlers. I watched them cut them off

[tcook8296]

6 hours ago, vdep217 said:

I'm familiar with most of it,  but there are farmers that use the permit all the way through the hunting season because they leave crops up.

If the deer population is that bad where you need a depridation permit, your crops should have to be harvested by a certain date. If you are leaving your crops standing then the problems not that bad. 

Its bs

[electric10162]

12 hours ago, tcook8296 said:

Mineral sites are the same as baiting. They both alter a deers natural movement. 

Deer hunting in Nj has become battle of the bait piles. 

The majority of our woodlots and parcels are too small for 100 percent natural hunting. 

There is and always will be some type of outside influence on natural movement. Neighbors, dogs, cars, atvs, hikers, other hunters etc. 

The state only cares about revenue, not deer management evident by its permit system and liberal bag limits. 

The state will do nothing about baiting unless they absolutely have too. 

Some farmers are making a lot of money off of deer hunting. 

They sell deer bait by day and slaughter deer by night. 

The whole system sucks plain and simple. 

Its every hunter for themselves under the current system. 

Those who learn how to manipulate deer movement the best have a better chance of success than those who do nothing. 

I can tell you I have my property set up to have the greatest influence in my neighborhood. 

Foodplots, baiting ,habitat enhancements, low impact hunting. 

Its all a game and some play it better than others. 

 

 

It sucks. In order to keep up with the neighbors, I'll have to put out a truckload of apples before six day just to keep the young uns from getting shot.

[tcook8296]

3 minutes ago, electric10162 said:

It sucks. In order to keep up with the neighbors, I'll have to put out a truckload of apples before six day just to keep the young uns from getting shot.

Lol. You are like 6 pages behind

[electric10162]

Just now, tcook8296 said:

Lol. You are like 6 pages behind

Story of my life 😂

[nickmarch]

1 hour ago, tcook8296 said:

The farmer across from me shoots deer at night from their trucks on the road from around July into Dec this year in addition to their normal hunting. And they do keep the antlers. I watched them cut them off

Great!  Maybe FW will see this post and visit your neighbor and want you to testify.

[muzzy1]

I wont be sad one bit when they ban baiting,maybe some guys will actually hunt