slug performance on deer

[vdep217]

@Lunatic.  i couldn't remember the velocities for shock waves but looked them up.  The yellow tips are designed for 1600 to 1900 fps.  I would venture to say with out chrono you are probly around 1600 at the muzzle thus not reaching optimal velocity for expantion assuming 100 grains of powder.  150 grains might give you the little bit needed to get to that 1700 muzzle velocity but with a better velocity choice of the 45 xtp is designed for 800fps to 1200 fps and xtp mag 1200 to 2100.

[bucky]

2 hours ago, archer36 said:

Well I'm going to have to look into this more closely. I really don't see how a deer hit in the heart/lung area (no where near the spine) can produce an instant kill. I have shot deer with every kind of slug (just about) and NONE has dropped with a heart/lung shot. A high double lung I can see, but not low in the body. 

Here you go this one hit the ground stone dead and I mean not even a twitch,60 yard shot with a 20 gauge lightfield...not common but it happens. I miss my soft lead lightfields

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by bucky

[Pathman]

1 hour ago, electric10162 said:

Got ya!

Here is same spot, another 300 lb deer, different result. Both deer shot with the 300 Weatherby Mag 180 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips at 120-140 yards.

 

So what does that indicate? That it’s more the placement then the bullet no?

[electric10162]

2 minutes ago, Pathman said:

So what does that indicate? That it’s more the placement then the bullet no?

Absolutely nothing. Shot placement is paramount. That deer was hit just behind the leg, clipping the heart with bullet lodged on offside lower shoulder. Only ran 40 yards into the bush. 

[Pathman]

1 minute ago, electric10162 said:

Absolutely nothing. Shot placement is paramount. That deer was hit just behind the leg, clipping the heart with bullet lodged on offside lower shoulder. Only ran 40 yards into the bush. 

Nothing?!!! In the context of this discussion it shows exactly the point I’m making. You hit a similar size deer with the same bullet in two different  POI, one dropped, one ran, that’s pretty indicative to me!😁

[Lunatic]

28 minutes ago, bucky said:

Here you go this one hit the ground stone dead and I mean not even a twitch,60 yard shot with a 20 gauge lightfield...not common but it happens

 

Nice but it looks like the guy in the lower right was dropped as well

[electric10162]

1 minute ago, Pathman said:

Nothing?!!! In the context of this discussion it shows exactly the point I’m making. You hit a similar size deer with the same bullet in two different  POI, one dropped, one ran, that’s pretty indicative to me!😁

Yes. It was more for archer36 than to prove a point. Other than a head shot, a deer going down on the spot is not the norm. While I agree with you, I think there are many factors that may cause a deer to drop on the spot. Placement, angle, distance, disposition etc. I find deer in Canada to be much more relaxed than here in Jersey. 

[vdep217]

21 minutes ago, electric10162 said:

Yes. It was more for archer36 than to prove a point. Other than a head shot, a deer going down on the spot is not the norm. While I agree with you, I think there are many factors that may cause a deer to drop on the spot. Placement, angle, distance, disposition etc. I find deer in Canada to be much more relaxed than here in Jersey. 

While all of those factors play a roll for a less than desirable bullet the correct bullet for game pursued will absolutely enter the equation.  Just look at ballistic gel tests with different bullets.  Some will only move 3 or 4 inches of the gel where some bullets cause the gel to seemingly implode.  Those bullets more times than not will cause enough hydrostatic shock even if hit in double lung to drop the animal.

[vdep217]

150 grain 3006

 

[Wangsly]

Shot this deer with a 20ga 2.75in accutip this year. Ran about 10 yards. Slug was recovered right under the hide on the opposite side of shot. Second picture you can see the slight bulge. Expansion was pretty good, I’m satisfied with the slug performance. 

[Trophy8]

Accu tips, sst and others are built to expand rapidly and dump all the energy inside the animal. Hit a deer above center and there is a  chance it will drop because of the disruption of the spine.

Hit a deer just under the shoulder blade and the odds go up that it will drop. 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Trophy8

[vdep217]

15 minutes ago, Trophy8 said:

Accu tips, sst and others are built to expand rapidly and dump all the energy inside the animal. Hit a deer above center and there is a  chance it will drop because of the disruption of the spine.

Hit a deer just under the shoulder blade and the odds go up that it will drop. 

Yes but not all mentioned are manufactured within the effective velocities of the bullet used.  Which is why so many have pass through at closer ranges the bullet is not designed to expand at say 1800 ft per second more likely around 1500 ft wich is why guys shooting deer with say accutips at 100 yrds are having better results than guys shooting deer at 50 yrds

Edited February 11, 2021 by vdep217

[flat9999]

7 minutes ago, vdep217 said:

Yes but not all mentioned are manufactured within the effective velocities of the bullet used.  Which is why so many have pass through at closer ranges the bullet is not designed to expand at say 1800 ft per second more likely around 1500 ft wich is why guys shooting deer with say accutips at 100 yrds are having better results than guys shooting deer at 50 yrds

I think that you might be thinking opposite of how it works. Bullets typically overexpand/fragment when their impact velocities are higher than what they were designed for. When driven to velocities lower than designed for, they tend to not expand enough. 

Used to be a big problem with cup/core bullets and magnum velocities. Early versions of Nosler Ballistic Tips and magnum chamberings often lead to bullets literally exploding just a few inches after impact. Hit a shoulder and the the results were gruesome.

 

BTW - Frontal shots on big game do tend to drop them quicker than broadside. With the right bullet, you are getting a massive amount of shock to the chest, neck and spine. At closer ranges, I'm a big fan.

 

[vdep217]

9 minutes ago, flat9999 said:

I think that you might be thinking opposite of how it works. Bullets typically overexpand/fragment when their impact velocities are higher than what they were designed for. When driven to velocities lower than designed for, they tend to not expand enough. 

Used to be a big problem with cup/core bullets and magnum velocities. Early versions of Nosler Ballistic Tips and magnum chamberings often lead to bullets literally exploding just a few inches after impact. Hit a shoulder and the the results were gruesome.

 

BTW - Frontal shots on big game do tend to drop them quicker than broadside. With the right bullet, you are getting a massive amount of shock to the chest, neck and spine. At closer ranges, I'm a big fan.

 

Look at ballistic gel tests.  Higher velocity yes will cause expansion but it is still punching through not transferring all energy into the target.  

 More so with slugs as its a much larger bullet so even tho it is over expanding it is still punching through due to weight retention.

  But with smaller calibers yes what you state is absolute

Edited February 11, 2021 by vdep217

[Trophy8]

31 minutes ago, flat9999 said:

I think that you might be thinking opposite of how it works. Bullets typically overexpand/fragment when their impact velocities are higher than what they were designed for. When driven to velocities lower than designed for, they tend to not expand enough. 

Used to be a big problem with cup/core bullets and magnum velocities. Early versions of Nosler Ballistic Tips and magnum chamberings often lead to bullets literally exploding just a few inches after impact. Hit a shoulder and the the results were gruesome.

 

BTW - Frontal shots on big game do tend to drop them quicker than broadside. With the right bullet, you are getting a massive amount of shock to the chest, neck and spine. At closer ranges, I'm a big fan.

 

its all in the design of the bullet...fast expanding bullets dump energy at impact....They are not intended for shoulder shots, yet guys think cause they shooting a .300 they can blow thru a shoulder.....bullet was not designed for that purpose regardless of caliber.