NJ DFW Deer Forums for Suggested New Regulations - who went? thoughts?

[JHbowhunter]

12 minutes ago, hammer4reel said:

there is only one way to make  guys shoot more does , and that’s less buck tags .

many families only eat 1-2 deer a year , so no need for them to shoot anything but bucks .

while FG  is happy to have any deer shot , the use the buck tags as a penalty .

proof if that is almost every permit or license allows unlimited does for the same price as 1 buck .

.

…

what I was basically saying is every doe = a buck tag....   Make the gun hunters contribute as well.  It should not matter when you shoot any does or bucks however.  Shoot 3 does in September get 3 buck tags.  I do think it would be good to cap buck tags at 3 or 2 and continue to encourage more does shot...

[chenrossi]

1 hour ago, mazzgolf said:

I'm curious about this:

1. How much is the DFW budget?

2. How much of that budget is supposed to come from license revenue?

3. How many hunters are in NJ (deer, waterfowl, small game, upland, etc - because some guys are deer-only, some waterfowl only...)

Everyone says "it's all about the money" - but there's some reality to that. Of course it has to be about the money - how else do they pay for the COs and the biologists and other employees? Pay for doing the pheasant field prep, and paying for the online license system and whatever else they waste their money on

It would be nice to say, "well just cut expenses to lower the budget" - but of course this is New Jersey and I don't think there is a politician in this state who knows how to actually lower costs. Once they get a dollar in their budget, it is there to stay (and they will then ask for more).

Knowing how much money is needed to run the division determines what licensing schemes are even viable. I would love to say "you buy one license and you can hunt any weapon from October to January and you get 2 bucks." But of course they'd never go for it because of all the lost revenue in zone permits, rifle permits , muzzy season permits, SG season permits, blah blah blah.

 

1) It's approximately 42 million dollars + - given year, of which almost 60-65% is gobbled up in salaries/fringe benefits for employees.

2) It's just north of 13 million, again +- given year. 

3) ~71-72,000 unique license holders.

[bucky]

28 minutes ago, JHbowhunter said:

Make the gun hunters contribute as well

So you feel the two months of "if its brown its down season" with a gun is not enough

Edited October 7, 2023 by bucky

[JHbowhunter]

7 minutes ago, bucky said:

So you feel the two months of "if its brown its down season" with a gun is not enough

that's a different topic, but if EAB is applied across the board, it might change some behaviors and definitely increase the doe harvest. 

[smittty]

8 minutes ago, bucky said:

So you feel the two months of "if its brown its down season" with a gun is not enough

I would like to see one archery buck and one gun buck. And close season after January 15th or even the first 

[Rem Mag]

1 hour ago, Pathman said:

Let me offer a different viewpoint to this access issue that guys are screaming about. 
Im not disagreeing that some sort of access is needed, but I don’t think everyone is thinking it through. 
So let’s say you have a farmer with 100 acres, and he has  30-40 deer regularly doing damage to his crops. 
So he decides (or is mandated) to allow access to hunters to come in and help reduce the deer numbers. 
Let’s say for Discussion purposes he allows 8- 10 hunters (~10-12 acres each) access, and the group starts hunting the farm regularly, and they each take a deer right off the bat. Great, the herd is now reduced by ~25%, what do you think happens next? 
I can tell you what, the deer become nocturnal on this farm because of the immense pressure they now feel from all these hunters.  
Even the younger deer will be smart enough to not come in during daylight. You might kill a few more, but that’s gonna be it. 
So the farmer still has relatively high deer numbers, and still had significant damage, even though he allowed a relatively large number of hunters on his property. 
Just think about state land for a minute. We constantly hear there’s not enough deer, they’re all nocturnal, etc. Why is that? Too much pressure right?

The same thing would play out on a farm if enough “recreational” hunters were allowed access, just on a smaller scale. 

Point is, this is why farmers rely on dep permits, they can kill more deer in one night then an entire season of recreational hunters can because of the obvious regulations we have to follow. 
 

This is not even mentioning the buck hunters who don’t pull their weight in management programs, that’s another discussion.  

So, to suggest that allowing recreational guys to hunt a farm as a prerequisite for dep permits or the like, is really not practical, nor will it solve the problem. 
 

I agree totally when you mention the issue of pressure and its effects. Unfortunately that's gonna occur on any property, for sure on state land when there is heavy pressure. 

The part where you say:

"So, to suggest that allowing recreational guys to hunt a farm as a prerequisite for dep permits or the like, is really not practical, nor will it solve the problem" 

I respectfully  agree and disagree at the same time. I get it that It is their land and their crops and their income but they should have to have some sort of "recreational  hunting " occur to qualify for the depredation permits. To just indiscriminately kill as many deer as possible and waste a resource is wrong. I am not saying anyone should just open their land and let any and everyone traipse all over it. There can be a way to coordinate willing hunters and landowners. PA seems to be able to manage something why can't NJ

 

If I may I will reference PA again.  They also have a program called Agricultural Deer Control (AG Tag) Program.  It was formally and well known as " Red Tag Program " because the tags were actually red. 

It is also like PA's Hunter Access program that I mentioned earlier in that the game commission is involved and the information is on their website. But that is the main similarity.  Hunter access program is for any hunting and trapping.  Ag tag is deer only and does only. And again access is not an automatic you still need permission and get a "cupon" to get an actual possession tag.. they cost $1.97 . 

And when you really dive into the Ag tag program there are lots if not most that experience the example you described.  Actually there are lots of properties that are smaller and a lot are crop fields only or tree nurseries with safety zones that end up excluding most of the properties acres.

It's not a magic wand by any means but my main point is it's a tool and an available option to try and bring hunters and farmers/landowners together and it's organized through the state game commission so it offers a legitimacy to it so farmers/ landowners will open their land.

Over the years I have asked permission and been told no. It is still under the landowners control they decided how many people or what part of the property is available to use. 

I don't think there are any hard and fast answers or easy solutions but definitely think there is a better way than we do it here in NJ

 

[bucky]

4 minutes ago, JHbowhunter said:

that's a different topic, but if EAB is applied across the board, it might change some behaviors and definitely increase the doe harvest. 

I was referring to gun hunters contributions, not EAB, I think gun hunters already do their share of doe killing. 

[JHbowhunter]

8 minutes ago, bucky said:

I was referring to gun hunters contributions, not EAB, I think gun hunters already do their share of doe killing. 

I don't think the statistics bear that out - it is clear that overall, we don't kill enough, collectively.  They need to remove all fees associated with shooting antlerless as well - make it ok to shoot does during 6 day without buying a permit.   

[jumpthestring]

10 minutes ago, JHbowhunter said:

I don't think the statistics bear that out - it is clear that overall, we don't kill enough, collectively.  They need to remove all fees associated with shooting antlerless as well - make it ok to shoot does during 6 day without buying a permit.   

Only zones that have a high deer density. my zones 2 and 3 they would wipe out the deer population .

[JHbowhunter]

6 minutes ago, jumpthestring said:

Only zones that have a high deer density. my zones 2 and 3 they would wipe out the deer population .

Of course - only where needed 

[bucky]

 

41 minutes ago, JHbowhunter said:

I don't think the statistics bear that out - it is clear that overall, we don't kill enough, collectively.  They need to remove all fees associated with shooting antlerless as well - make it ok to shoot does during 6 day without buying a permit.   

I would be happy if they did away with shooting does at all during "buck" week. Start ALL permit doe days the following week  

 

29 minutes ago, jumpthestring said:

my zones 2 and 3 they would wipe out the deer population

And the bowhunter only crowd would complain the gun hunters wiped them all out..lol

Edited October 7, 2023 by bucky

[Pathman]

3 hours ago, Russ 11 said:

Who the heck would want to hunt a 100 acre farm with 8 to 10 guys . Put 2 guys on that same farm who know what they’re doing and you would take twice the deer that your 10 hunters would .     By the way are you one of the guys who shoots deer at night on a depredation permits ?  Just curious . 

Nobody would, that’s the point! How many “2 guys” do you think are around that will shoot 30-40 deer? I can tell you, not many!😂

what the farmers need is not possible with recreational hunters, that’s just the reality of it. 
 

Problem is most guys think if they hunt a farm and take a dozen or so deer that they’re performing effective  management, they’re not, that’s why the farmers have the attitude they do. 

[Lunatic]

2 hours ago, JHbowhunter said:

what I was basically saying is every doe = a buck tag....   Make the gun hunters contribute as well.  It should not matter when you shoot any does or bucks however.  Shoot 3 does in September get 3 buck tags.  I do think it would be good to cap buck tags at 3 or 2 and continue to encourage more does shot...

What do you think about the statistic with most guys taking less than 3 bucks/season. It would seam the harvest level is what you are looking for. According to the numbers there are less than 10 guys taking more than 3 bucks in the entire state.  I personally don’t know one hunter killing more than 3 in a season and most take one or none. 

[Lunatic]

8 minutes ago, Pathman said:

Nobody would, that’s the point! How many “2 guys” do you think are around that will shoot 30-40 deer? I can tell you, not many!😂

what the farmers need is not possible with recreational hunters, that’s just the reality of it. 
 

Problem is most guys think if they hunt a farm and take a dozen or so deer that they’re performing effective  management, they’re not, that’s why the farmers have the attitude they do. 

I am Hunting farm leases for the last 20 years and I agree 100%. Recreational hunters don’t take anywhere near of what the farmer needs to control his harvest losses. Guys suggesting this is a better solution for the farmer are dreaming!! No way no how!!

[mazzgolf]

11 minutes ago, Lunatic said:

According to the numbers there are less than 10 guys taking more than 3 bucks in the entire state.

That was my mistake that someone corrected (I went back and updated all my posts to fix that)... it's single digit hunters that killed 6 bucks.

It's about 1,000 that killed 3+.

A couple hundred that killed 4 or more

Edited October 7, 2023 by mazzgolf