What happened Jack

[JHbowhunter]

4 minutes ago, luv2hunt said:

WOW is all I can say...this Capt. sounds like a real class act.  Catching fish isn't what trips like this are ALL about...you're there to enjoy yourselves as well.  Sorry to hear about your experience.  Need to spread the word and avoid him in the future...plenty of other great charter Captains out there.

Devils advocate - if we were on any of the other boats watching FP hooking  up 6 at a time while getting shut out on lures bet would have felt differently. The mentality was “get them while they are still feeding and use all 100 bunker”. I get that. Just need a plan for the “after”. I do not advocate hurting one’s business. Will speak with him later

[hunterbob1]

2 minutes ago, JHbowhunter said:

Not a single bass was boated all cookie cutter 28-34” bass. Had we gotten a cow for sure would have been pics. Insane action. Just lack of communication as to “what next” is the only point. 6 guys hooked up will go through bait faster than 4 guys. I was happy to see everyone experience something like that. It was over so fast it left us speechless.  

Well regardless of the other you done good Jack thinking of the others maybe never caught a striper wanted to catch fish, logbook entry, memories, mission accomplished,good job

[68Ioweu1]

I’ve literally never heard anything bad about Derrick, this is the very first time. 
 

Again, why didn’t you say anything? 
 

in NJ he’s easily one of THE MOST experienced and competent captains in the game with a giant client list. 
Pretty serious allegations to BE making against a captain without  bringing it up to him first before running to the internet. 

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by 68Ioweu1

[BHC]

jack was at the blue oyster 

 

[hammer4reel]

I will let Jack and Derek work it out as I know they gave been in contact today .

 

That said I hold comment on what did or didn’t happen in the trip .

That said I have known Derek for 15 years . To BB you even thinking you have as much or more experience as he does , is laughable .

he runs doubles every day for over 3 months just targeting stripers , and has for the last 17 years .

‘He catches more fish in one season striper fishing than the almost the whole fleet fishing up there .

‘He spends time and fuel to try and avoid crowds and gets dialed in on fish quick . And most times isn’t fishing the same way the crowds are .

hence why you guys beat on fish while others around you stroked it .

I sent a lot of customers to him when I stopped chartering , and honestly this is the first time I heard a complaint .

Jack has fished with him twice this year and both trips number wise were super .

 

you may not like the captain or his demeanor. But you paid to catch fish not have him give you a kiss .

 

.

as far as targeting another species .

when you book a striper trip , you fish for stripers . Your not carrying gear to target other stuff .

bottom fishing that happens as the tackle is simaler .

 

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by hammer4reel

[BowhunterNJ]

15 minutes ago, hammer4reel said:

I will let Jack and Derek work it out as I know they gave been in contact today .

 

That said I hold comment on what did or didn’t happen in the trip .

That said I have known Derek for 15 years . To BB you even thinking you have as much or more experience as he does , is laughable .

‘He catches more fish in one season striper fishing than the almost the whole fleet fishing up there .

‘He spends time and fuel to try and avoid crowds and gets dialed in on fish quick . And miost times isn’t fishing the same way the crowds are .

hence why you guys beat on fish while others around you stroked it .

I sent a lot of customers to him when I stopped chartering , and honestly this is the first time I heard a complaint .

Jack has fished with him twice this year and both trips number wise were super .

 

you may not like the captain or his demeanor. But you paid to catch fish not have him give you a kiss .

 

.

as far as targeting another species .

when you book a striper trip , you fish for stripers . Your not carrying gear to target other stuff .

bottom fishing that happens as the tackle is simaler .

 

 

To this end, when you book a charter, is it for an X hour trip or an X fish trip?  Who should decide?

[hunterbob1]

13 minutes ago, BowhunterNJ said:

To this end, when you book a charter, is it for an X hour trip or an X fish trip?  Who should decide?

Good question no mention of the box was full and reached there limit... just ran out of Bunker. What do you guys want to do now?

Paid for x hours

Troll an jig the rest

Edited May 27, 2022 by hunterbob1

[JHbowhunter]

Look guys. I spoke to Captain. He agrees communication was missed on both sides. In his mind he gave 6 anglers action of a lifetime. We were free to jig and I actually did amidst a screen of thick markings for ten minutes. He did not make the 100 bunker limit. We left dock 12:45 got back 3:15.  He got my perspective - being clients, Captain should present the options we should not have to ask.  I strongly suggest and request this be taken down 

Edited May 27, 2022 by JHbowhunter

[hammer4reel]

1 hour ago, BowhunterNJ said:

To this end, when you book a charter, is it for an X hour trip or an X fish trip?  Who should decide?

If guys book a trip to liveline, and don’t want to troll .

‘The captain nets all he is allowed to take , it’s all on the fish at that point .

you can’t blame the captain that 65 fish were caught in an hour instead of 6.

‘It’s my understanding from Both parties involved , Jack tried to spoon on insane marks and it didn’t get a sniff .

‘Bass were zoned in totally on bunker .

so other option is to troll .

 

everything isn’t so cut and dry  , captain could gave stayed much closer to his port , stated out 6 hours and caught a handful of fish . Instead he worked hard to produce a better trip than that .

it’s a catch 22 and honestly can be argued both ways .

ALOT of Charters running longer trips catching a dozen bass or less a trip .

which is better if your a fisherman ? (That’s up to the individual) 

 

.

 

 

[JHbowhunter]

14 minutes ago, hammer4reel said:

If guys book a trip to liveline, and don’t want to troll .

‘The captain nets all he is allowed to take , it’s all on the fish at that point .

you can’t blame the captain that 65 fish were caught in an hour instead of 6.

‘It’s my understanding from Both parties involved , Jack tried to spoon on insane marks and it didn’t get a sniff .

‘Bass were zoned in totally on bunker .

so other option is to troll .

 

everything isn’t so cut and dry  , captain could gave stayed much closer to his port , stated out 6 hours and caught a handful of fish . Instead he worked hard to produce a better trip than that .

it’s a catch 22 and honestly can be argued both ways .

ALOT of Charters running longer trips catching a dozen bass or less a trip .

which is better if your a fisherman ? (That’s up to the individual) 

 

.

 

 

I joked after trip would have been better to get same result over 4-5 hours of fishing and get back half hour early. But sometimes the fish say otherwise. We had beers cigars and subs too but it was too intense.  I will say what I often say at work - #1 cause of all issues is lack of communication. In this case not one of 8 men on the boat said a word. 

[JHbowhunter]

And my thoughts on trolling the rest of trip…. 

[BowhunterNJ]

55 minutes ago, hammer4reel said:

If guys book a trip to liveline, and don’t want to troll .

‘The captain nets all he is allowed to take , it’s all on the fish at that point .

you can’t blame the captain that 65 fish were caught in an hour instead of 6.

‘It’s my understanding from Both parties involved , Jack tried to spoon on insane marks and it didn’t get a sniff .

‘Bass were zoned in totally on bunker .

so other option is to troll .

 

everything isn’t so cut and dry  , captain could gave stayed much closer to his port , stated out 6 hours and caught a handful of fish . Instead he worked hard to produce a better trip than that .

it’s a catch 22 and honestly can be argued both ways .

ALOT of Charters running longer trips catching a dozen bass or less a trip .

which is better if your a fisherman ? (That’s up to the individual) 

 

.

 

 

Agree there are a number of factors, but ones that are non-negotiable IMHO are:

1. The captain owns/runs the boat and they communicate the trip's planning throughout the entirety of the trip.  You can't rely on the customers to tell a captain what to do (and they never should).  And the captain should understand the customer's goals for the trip ahead of time, whether it's catching numbers as a priority, catching quality as a priority, filling a freezer as a priority, or just being out there to enjoy the experience whether they catch or not (and what that means to them).  Or as part of taking on the charter, the captain communicates their own goal BEFORE accepting the trip and if the customer's goals don't align with theirs, then the trip is never chartered.  Ultimately the boats goals of showing a full deck of fish should not supersede the paying customer's goals of the trip.  I know it has a potential impact to the "daily image" a captain wants to maintain, but it's an easily explainable and justifiable trip if the customer wanted to "stay close and soak up the sun" in the bay rather than run an hour+ each way oceanside to get to better fishing (not saying this trip but in general).  Again lots of variables but the equation of customer > captain in terms of goals/experiences is non-negotiable IMHO and is avoidable IF the captain communicates ahead of time they have a conflict of interest and simply don't align on how they want to fish together.
    
2. Regarding #1, this is why there is an effective contract in a charter.  Customers pay $X for Y.  That Y is often hours of fishing time, but no specification of where they'll fish and of course no guarantee to catch fish.  The where is indeed up to the captain and in the interest of his business (good to catch and show off the catch) and his customers (desire to catch), the captain should want to position themselves for the best of both (and Derek has indeed consistently done this).  I've known plenty of captains that have opted to save costs/gas and fish closer to port where fishing wasn't as good (and the results showed it).  Penny wise, dollar foolish.  Better captains know that's a losing business strategy.
    
3. It's the captain's responsibility to be prepared, even in the event you run out of live bait.  Unless the charter is contracted that they get a livewell of bait and when it runs out the trip is over, whether that's 30 minutes of nonstop chaos fishing or 6 hours of slow fishing, then IMHO the charter is obligated to meeting the duration of the charter UNLESS:
   • Bad weather makes conditions unsafe
   • Mechanical failure (which really should be addressed with a pro-rated refund or rescheduling)
   • Hard drugs, violence, etc force the captain to end the trip prematurely
   • The customer requests going in early (i.e. it should NEVER be decided for them, they PAID in FULL for a FULL trip whether you catch or not.  You are chartered for your services for the duration of that contracted time and should be delivering your best throughout)

 

I don't think anyone can argue with the success of Derek and his willingness to do what other captains may not (all part of good business), I personally was very surprised to hear of the abbreviation to the trips.  I've worked 100s of charters in my youth and abbreviating trips simply because a lot of fish were caught was never part of the equation. Likewise, even if we ran out of live bait, we always had frozen bait available.  It doesn't mean you bring rod/reel setups for every species out there, you target one and if there is crossover that allows you to fish for others you do that.  But you are always prepared to fish the full duration for the target species, even if that means you'll have lesser results (i.e. frozen bait not catching as well or at all compared to live).  This is an explainable part of the trip to the customer where running a long distance for bait again is not cost effective (again this can be communicated and clear ahead of time, just as NOT even getting live bait is a possible outcome).  ALWAYS have a backup plan and a backup to that (i.e. frozen bait, jigs, spoons, trolling, whatever).

One final thing the best captains realize is, even though they fish every day, that trip's customers do not.  A once in a lifetime trip shouldn't be cut short because you feel you met the catch quota and trip objective (in your mind).  Give them your best for the entire time you've been chartered/contracted.  THAT is your job and the customers deserve your best in that.

Like many things in life, communication goes a long way and can prevent a lot of issues from happening if that communication happens before all this stuff transpires.  There's no taking away from Derek's history as an excellent fishing captain, I absolutely don't think he meant any willful harm in how he ran the trip or was trying to take advantage in any way, I just think all of this boils down to customer service and being customer mindful.  It's easy to overlook when you're running doubles hard for months on end and grinding away, you look through the lens of your own job/life and can miss what's providing you that job/life (your customers) or simply have a narrower vision that catching is all that matters.   Fortunately it's also easy to correct.   And certainly there are customers who won't care and be fine if they caught fast, filled a freezer and got home in time for dinner.  However you just don't want to lose site of those that do care because it will impact your business.  Even if it isn't posted here, it gets discussed and word of mouth has just as much (likely more) impact than any post on this site.

Wishing everyone the best in their future of fishing and I'm glad Jack and Derek could talk through the miscommunication.  Hopefully some lessons learned on both sides that can improve both the business and customer side in the future!

[Farmshine]

I went on a charter last year, 4 guys, 60 bunker.  We were back at the dock by 7am.  We hammered them and called it a trip.  But we knew what the plan was so there was no surprises. Like others have stated. Communication.  

[BowhunterNJ]

1 hour ago, Farmshine said:

I went on a charter last year, 4 guys, 60 bunker.  We were back at the dock by 7am.  We hammered them and called it a trip.  But we knew what the plan was so there was no surprises. Like others have stated. Communication.  

Yep like I said above, "in home time for dinner" or in your case, "in home time for breakfast"

 

[hunterbob1]

2 minutes ago, BowhunterNJ said:

Yep like I said above, "in home time for dinner" or in your case, "in home time for breakfast"

 

Double double yolk eggs, sunny side up, 2 slices a wonder bread lightly toasted,land o lakes butter, potato fritters,big glass of oj and case roll cut Xtra thick Taylor ham.