Any Ideas on This Subject

[archer36]

So there is a LOT of talk about letting bucks grow to "trophy" size. It's been 17 years since PA passed the 3 pt rule for harvesting bucks. Our Club leases a 300 acre piece of private land in PA. There has been NO apparent improvement in antler size of the bucks. Still struggle to get even 1 or 2 legal deer out of about 8 hunters each year. What's your thoughts? I feel poaching is a factor. What else? Genetics?

I should add that I only hunted this property once about 20 years ago but we get reports from the guys in the club that do hunt it. Prior to antler restrictions most of the deer shot were spikes, 3 pts, etc. No "rack" deer. 

Edited November 16, 2019 by archer36

[BowhunterNJ]

High grading and leaving inferior genetics behind. IMHO the key is age class management not point restrictions. 

[hammer4reel]

8 minutes ago, archer36 said:

So there is a LOT of talk about letting bucks grow to "trophy" size. It's been 17 years since PA passed the 3 pt rule for harvesting bucks. Our Club leases a 300 acre piece of private land in PA. There has been NO apparent improvement in antler size of the bucks. Still struggle to get even 1 or 2 legal deer out of about 8 hunters each year. What's your thoughts? I feel poaching is a factor. What else? Genetics?

Been hunting in the Poconos for 46 seasons , first 30  most bucks seen were small spikes and basket racked bucks .

last 10 years we always have a few bucks around over 125 and one or 2 over 150.

IMO it has made th quality of the hunt better here .

this area gets pounded, and seems once bucks get some age on them they know how to avoid getting  shot

[archer36]

Just now, hammer4reel said:

Been hunting in the Poconos for 46 seasons , first 30  most bucks seen were small spikes and basket racked bucks .

last 10 years we always have a few bucks around over 125 and one or 2 over 150.

IMO it has made th quality of the hunt better here .

this area gets pounded, and seems once bucks get some age on them they know how to avoid getting  shot

Private or public? I only ask to gauge poaching potential. 

[roy381]

Same here, we hunt 700 acres in Wayne county usually 6 of us. Usually only pull a buck or two each year. Our cameras are showing a lot of small bucks, small amount mature shooters only a few slammers.  We practice only taking mature deer. I  personally have not brought home a buck in 4 years. Certainly not to the lack of effort.  I usually hunt 10 of the 12 days. Seems like a lot bow hunters in my area. Being that you can only take one buck between rifle and bow season. Maybe hunters are choosing to hunt the rut with a bow. This may attribute to the low numbers I'm not sure. But I don't see much of a difference in opportunities from years ago .

[mattg1500]

1 hour ago, archer36 said:

So there is a LOT of talk about letting bucks grow to "trophy" size. It's been 17 years since PA passed the 3 pt rule for harvesting bucks. Our Club leases a 300 acre piece of private land in PA. There has been NO apparent improvement in antler size of the bucks. Still struggle to get even 1 or 2 legal deer out of about 8 hunters each year. What's your thoughts? I feel poaching is a factor. What else? Genetics?

I have 30 acres in Pa and manage it as best as I can. I run 2 mineral sites spring and summer and do NOT allow others to hunt it. Every year I see improvement in bucks and buck actuvity. No does have been taken off of it either. There are neighbors that kill deer whenever and also have been road hunters caught. I have a few oaks that produce large amounts of acorns yearly and a spring on the property. Id say look at your nutrition and water sources and start there

[archer36]

Just now, mattg1500 said:

I have 30 acres in Pa and manage it as best as I can. I run 2 mineral sites spring and summer and do NOT allow others to hunt it. Every year I see improvement in bucks and buck actuvity. No does have been taken off of it either. There are neighbors that kill deer whenever and also have been road hunters caught. I have a few oaks that produce large amounts of acorns yearly and a spring on the property. Id say look at your nutrition and water sources and start there

Farmer grows corn. It's a dairy farm. There is a 2 acre pond there. 

[Livesintrees]

1 minute ago, archer36 said:

Farmer grows corn. It's a dairy farm. There is a 2 acre pond there. 

Your first issue is it’s a club. You can’t control how someone hunts. If their hunting the right wind. If they scent control is good or bad. If the entry and exit routes are right. Multiple guys hunting for multiple days in a row will push mature animals off the property. The list is huge. If you don’t have the option to improve the land, bc it’s a lease, more then likely the results aren’t going to get better. Corn sounds great. But realistically it only represents one little tiny fraction of nutrition. A water source is always great to have, if it’s in the right spot. Cover is king and a mature buck is using his bedding spots for a reason. He can see and smell. So even if the property does hold one or two slammers, they catch on quick. They don’t do anything randomly. 

[Rusty]

Gary Alt did not implement Antler Restrictions in Pa to produce bigger bucks, he did it to get hunters to shoot more does.  He was given one directive when he was put in charge of the deer project, significantly reduce Pa's deer herd in an attempt to save their forests.  

Antler Restrictions cause High Grading.  Young deer with the best genetics are removed each year while those with inferior genetics are protected.  A class of permanently protected, genetically inferior, bucks is created.  Over time this class of permanently protected bucks gets larger while the number of legal bucks decreases.  Given enough time ARs can do some serious damage to a deer herd.

 

[mattg1500]

38 minutes ago, archer36 said:

Farmer grows corn. It's a dairy farm. There is a 2 acre pond there. 

Are you hunting the area with the cows? I hunted a dairy farm in NJ and all the big bucks would stay outside the fence on neighboring properties. I saw ok bucks every year but nothing great. I put a few cams facing into the woods along the pasture and was very surprised at what I saw. Corn is good will he leave a few rows standing for u?

[hammer4reel]

1 hour ago, archer36 said:

Private or public? I only ask to gauge poaching potential. 

No such thing as private up here .

during the gun seasons I don’t think there is an inch of the county not driven .

i spend that whole week chasing guys off .

trespass fines have no teeth, so they could care less 

[hammer4reel]

16 minutes ago, Rusty said:

Gary Alt did not implement Antler Restrictions in Pa to produce bigger bucks, he did it to get hunters to shoot more does.  He was given one directive when he was put in charge of the deer project, significantly reduce Pa's deer herd in an attempt to save their forests.  

Antler Restrictions cause High Grading.  Young deer with the best genetics are removed each year while those with inferior genetics are protected.  A class of permanently protected, genetically inferior, bucks is created.  Over time this class of permanently protected bucks gets larger while the number of legal bucks decreases.  Given enough time ARs can do some serious damage to a deer herd.

 

Go to any taxidermist or butcher shop in PA and they disagree with that entirely .

Quality of the deer here has definetly not gone down..

For your theory to be valid we would be seeing just big spikes and four pointers , that definetly isn’t the case.

.

Does are also half the equation , there genes are in the fawn also .

..

 

[Greybeard]

IMO, only way to get bigger bucks is by reducing the number of hunters and/or improve habitat to make thick, impenetrable sanctuaries.  Plus have a good herd of doe to produce enough bucks so more will survive to next year.

[megavites]

IMO..antler restrictions have improved things...

[archer36]

10 minutes ago, megavites said:

IMO..antler restrictions have improved things...

Never saw a buck like that from the PA property in the 20 years I've been in the Club. 

Edited November 16, 2019 by archer36