Reaction to shot video.

[Pathman]

if the below link works, here’s  another take on deer reacting to the shot. Pick up the video at 7:45, unless you want to see the entire hunt first. 

Direct link:  https://www.growingdeer.tv/video/NQYZvE2e

https://www.growingdeer.tv/

[Bonefreak]

Awesome video!!

Dr Grant Woods always does an outstanding job with scientific based deer management and harvest observations!!

Interesting how he mentions about 30 yds is his max distance with any archery equipment 

[Outandabout90]

Great video

[Lunatic]

We had this discussion some time ago and there was a disagreement on how is deer dropping. Is it just gravity or are there other forces generated by deer? This guys thinks its just gravity and I agree.
His example of side by side deer does not work very well because the deer with its head up is reaching way back and that for sure would effect  his ability to react. However, from other clips it appears his is right. Deer with heads down show greater reaction.  

[Haskell_Hunter]

47 minutes ago, Lunatic said:

We had this discussion some time ago and there was a disagreement on how is deer dropping. Is it just gravity or are there other forces generated by deer? This guys thinks its just gravity and I agree.
His example of side by side deer does not work very well because the deer with its head up is reaching way back and that for sure would effect  his ability to react. However, from other clips it appears his is right. Deer with heads down show greater reaction.  

Can’t be just gravity.  Bones and muscle have mass, and the contraction of muscle against those bones creates a mechanical action that will increase the rate of drop faster than just the acceleration of gravity.

When someone throws a rock at your head and says, “duck”, the downward motion you make is not solely due to gravity.  Your muscles tighten up in such a way that your body accelerates the drop of your head.

[Lunatic]

37 minutes ago, Haskell_Hunter said:

Can’t be just gravity.  Bones and muscle have mass, and the contraction of muscle against those bones creates a mechanical action that will increase the rate of drop faster than just the acceleration of gravity.

When someone throws a rock at your head and says, “duck”, the downward motion you make is not solely due to gravity.  Your muscles tighten up in such a way that your body accelerates the drop of your head.

You can move your hand or head independently of gravity. Deer's body has no free end, like a hand with muscle that can move it. All free ends, the four legs are on the ground so to me all the muscles are doing is allowing the body  to drop. If they were able to pull the body down where is the opposite reaction? Deer can not hold down to the  ground and pull. The muscles on deer leg are attached to the leg on top and to the leg on the bottom. How does this muscle pull on the body? It can not unless the muscle attached to the knee below was attache to the body above.The shoulder is a joint, when deer knees bend the shoulder like a hinge allows the leg to pivot forward. How does this pull the deer down?  The way it is,  deer just bends its knee, and the body drops. I see no mechanism allowing deer to pull himself down. In the articles from scientists expressing their opinion on this subject, we read several of them last time we got into this subject, all agree it was gravity only.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Lunatic

[newjerseyhunter]

47 minutes ago, Lunatic said:

You can move your hand or head independently of gravity. Deer's body has no free end, like a hand with muscle that can move it. All free ends, the four legs are on the ground so to me all the muscles are doing is allowing the body  to drop. If they were able to pull the body down where is the opposite reaction? Deer can not hold down to the  ground and pull. The muscles on deer leg are attached to the leg on top and to the leg on the bottom. How does this muscle pull on the body? It can not unless the muscle attached to the knee below was attache to the body above.The shoulder is a joint, when deer knees bend the shoulder like a hinge allows the leg to pivot forward. How does this pull the deer down?  The way it is,  deer just bends its knee, and the body drops. I see no mechanism allowing deer to pull himself down. In the articles from scientists expressing their opinion on this subject, we read several of them last time we got into this subject, all agree it was gravity only.

NO body movement is ever done independently of gravity, it either works against or complements gravity. There are multiple ways muscles can cause movement in humans and deer; muscle contraction of multiple sorts as well as muscle relaxation. I believe this is true of most if not all vertebrates. A deer can move its head and rear up on hind legs, extending and retracting it's fore legs. So we know deer have the mechanics necessary to create a pulling force downward, how much force can they create? Probably not a lot because their legs make up a fraction of the weight of their body even working with the forces of gravity. That being said, the deer is not simply "relaxing" it's muscles and letting gravity sink it's body. 

Another point, we would also have to consider the forces the deer hooves are exerting on the ground at the moment of the "drop". If the downward force, ie the weight of the deer on each hoof, shifts to a lateral force it could be that during this movement the deer moves its front and back legs together in a tensing motion in an attempt to squeeze down and grip the ground on which they stand. 

 

[username]

Lot's of variables going on here. ..

This sounds like the classic monkey in a tree problem, run in reverse.

 

Assume the shot is lined up correctly and the trajectory of the arrow intersects the path of the falling monkey.

If the monkey lets go at the time of the shot, the monkey gets hit. 

Faster arrow, less fall.  Slower arrow, more fall, but the monkey is still hit.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2019 by username

[megavites]

it happens..100%. Here's a crappy screenshot from a doe I had at 15yds...standing slightly quartering to and she dropped on the shot. I believe the reaction is the deer's attempt to "load up" the muscle to bolt away.

When you jump, you don't do it from a standing position.

Edited October 23, 2019 by megavites

[Lunatic]

2 hours ago, newjerseyhunter said:

NO body movement is ever done independently of gravity, it either works against or complements gravity. There are multiple ways muscles can cause movement in humans and deer; muscle contraction of multiple sorts as well as muscle relaxation. I believe this is true of most if not all vertebrates. A deer can move its head and rear up on hind legs, extending and retracting it's fore legs. So we know deer have the mechanics necessary to create a pulling force downward, how much force can they create? Probably not a lot because their legs make up a fraction of the weight of their body even working with the forces of gravity. That being said, the deer is not simply "relaxing" it's muscles and letting gravity sink it's body. 

Another point, we would also have to consider the forces the deer hooves are exerting on the ground at the moment of the "drop". If the downward force, ie the weight of the deer on each hoof, shifts to a lateral force it could be that during this movement the deer moves its front and back legs together in a tensing motion in an attempt to squeeze down and grip the ground on which they stand. 

 

Of course by independent I did not mean without existence of gravity.

Your explanation of how the deer has a mechanism to move its head or leg does not in any way explain what is the mechanism of moving the front of the body, supported by two legs on the ground, down. Of course the deer is not relaxing its muscle to lower its body. It contracts the muscled in its legs to  bend the knee and to push it  foreword. This in itself eliminates the support of the deer, as the shoulder allows the upper leg to go from vertical to some angle closer to horizontal and the body drops. Draw a diagram of the deer and on top draw vectors of forces generated by leg muscles. Show me how they apply any force to the upper body and where is the reactionary force. They can definitely raise the body because that force has an equal and opposite reaction pushing on the ground but how do they pull it down? if its  a pull then where is the equal and opposite reaction? 

Think about it this way. When you do push ups, do you think at any time you are pulling yourself down? I say no way, its all gravity unless you are grasping something which would allow  to pull yourself down against.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Lunatic

[Pathman]

Wow guys, I thought I overthink things!!!😳😁

 

[newjerseyhunter]

1 minute ago, Lunatic said:

Of course by independent I did not mean without existence of gravity.

Your explanation of how the deer has a mechanism to move its head or leg does not in any way explain what is the mechanism of moving the front of the body, supported by two legs on the ground, down. Of course the deer is not relaxing its muscle to lower its body. It contracts the muscled in its legs to  bend the knee and to push it  foreword. This in itself eliminates the support of the deer, as the shoulder allows the upper leg to go from vertical to some angle closer to horizontal and the body drops. Draw a diagram of the deer and on top draw vectors of forces generated by leg muscles. Show me how they apply any force to the upper body. They can definitely raise the body because that force has an equal and opposite reaction pushing on the ground but how do they pull it down? if its  a pull then where is the equal and opposite reaction? 

Think about it this way. When you do push ups, do you think at any time you are pulling yourself down? I say no way, its all gravity

Yes, of course the contraction of the muscles isn't because the deer is trying to "duck" the arrow. The deer is bringing the limbs closer to the body in order to load the muscles in order to explode into motion. My point is I think it happens faster than if it were just gravity, ie, the contraction is adding force downward. I do agree with the statement in the video that a deer that swings its head up will increase the speed at which the shoulders/mid back lowers.

No, I'm not pulling myself down but I'm also not sure I'm falling towards the ground fast enough to escape an arrow moving at 280fps. I guess that would be the real test. 

[Lphunsjr]

Good video

[Lunatic]

4 minutes ago, newjerseyhunter said:

Yes, of course the contraction of the muscles isn't because the deer is trying to "duck" the arrow. The deer is bringing the limbs closer to the body in order to load the muscles in order to explode into motion. My point is I think it happens faster than if it were just gravity, ie, the contraction is adding force downward. I do agree with the statement in the video that a deer that swings its head up will increase the speed at which the shoulders/mid back lowers.

No, I'm not pulling myself down but I'm also not sure I'm falling towards the ground fast enough to escape an arrow moving at 280fps. I guess that would be the real test. 

We disagree on one point and not by much, and the point is really irrelevant. I completely disagree we can pull our body down during push ups and I completely disagree deer can pull its body down. Its all gravity. Irrelevant disagreement because as you stated there could not be much of a force to begin with.

[newjerseyhunter]

1 minute ago, Lunatic said:

We disagree on one point and not by much, and the point is really irrelevant. I completely disagree we can pull our body down during push ups and I completely disagree deer can pull its body down. Its all gravity. Irrelevant disagreement because as you stated there could not be much of a force to begin with.

Yes, like I previously stated we would have to measure whether the hooves generate any type of lateral force.

All of this begs the question... according to the Phd in the video we should be aiming at the lower third of the vitals in preparation for the deer jumping the string. If we are 15-18 feet up, aiming at a deer that is 15 yards from the stand, how on earth do you aim at the lower third? If that deer doesn't react (and drop its body) you risk missing the far side lung, no?