Savage 220 First Impressions

[electric10162]

13 minutes ago, BillCarson said:

great! I love that scope with the Barnes Expander 20g dial, cool!

Leupold offers the first adjustment dial based on your load, for free. I may buy another if I want to change my zero to 150 yards.

[ForestGhost]

I own the 212, easily shoot 3 inch + at 100yds and really like it. I like the 220 also just want stick with a 12 gauge.

[archer36]

Here is a quote from a leading authority on all things related to firearms:

Remington Premier AccuTip Saboted Slug Ammunition

By Randy Wakeman

 

Illustration courtesy of Remington Arms Co., Inc.

Remington Premier AccuTip Bonded Sabot Slug Ammunition is quite a mouthful, so I'll just refer to them as Remington AccuTips. They are offered in 2-3/4 inch and 3 inch rounds, both in 20 gauge and 12 gauge, for slug guns with rifled barrels. Right now, the 20 gauge is the preferred shotgun slug platform for deer hunting, as the external ballistics are essentially the same. Some of us have a rough time understanding that just because a rifle (or rifled barrel shotgun) kicks us harder, it doesn't mean that it is going to kick a game animal harder, or make him deader better. Nothing beats shot placement and the 20 gauge is intrinsically a more accurate platform, as has been repeatedly shown. Lower recoil and more shooting comfort invariably promotes accuracy.

It is hard to find ballistics tables beyond 125 yds for shotgun slug shooting so it's hard to judge things like trajectory and ft lbs of energy. At any range, a 12 ga slug will produce more energy than a 20. I have heard this "myth" about the 20 ga slug going back 40 years. "Shoots like a rifle". Not true. If you can show me ballistics tables for a 12 ga and 20 ga Accutip side by side to show that the 20 ga is superior, then I will be convinced. Simply saying you have confidence shooting out to 200 or 300 yds does not prove ballistics. Any bow or firearm can be shot at long distances as long as the shot is practiced and perfected. As mentioned, increased accuracy can be experienced due to lower recoil but it does not mean the it is inherently more accurate. A person who is not recoil sensitive can be just as accurate with a 12 ga. 

Once again, I congratulate you on a fine Deer Killing Machine. The 20 ga is more than adequate to kill deer sized game. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by archer36

[BHC]

Randy flip flops often, look up his post on shotgunworld.com 

 

[electric10162]

32 minutes ago, archer36 said:

Here is a quote from a leading authority on all things related to firearms:

Remington Premier AccuTip Saboted Slug Ammunition

By Randy Wakeman

 

Illustration courtesy of Remington Arms Co., Inc.

Remington Premier AccuTip Bonded Sabot Slug Ammunition is quite a mouthful, so I'll just refer to them as Remington AccuTips. They are offered in 2-3/4 inch and 3 inch rounds, both in 20 gauge and 12 gauge, for slug guns with rifled barrels. Right now, the 20 gauge is the preferred shotgun slug platform for deer hunting, as the external ballistics are essentially the same. Some of us have a rough time understanding that just because a rifle (or rifled barrel shotgun) kicks us harder, it doesn't mean that it is going to kick a game animal harder, or make him deader better. Nothing beats shot placement and the 20 gauge is intrinsically a more accurate platform, as has been repeatedly shown. Lower recoil and more shooting comfort invariably promotes accuracy.

It is hard to find ballistics tables beyond 125 yds for shotgun slug shooting so it's hard to judge things like trajectory and ft lbs of energy. At any range, a 12 ga slug will produce more energy than a 20. I have heard this "myth" about the 20 ga slug going back 40 years. "Shoots like a rifle". Not true. If you can show me ballistics tables for a 12 ga and 20 ga Accutip side by side to show that the 20 ga is superior, then I will be convinced. Simply saying you have confidence shooting out to 200 or 300 yds does not prove ballistics. Any bow or firearm can be shot at long distances as long as the shot is practiced and perfected. As mentioned, increased accuracy can be experienced due to lower recoil but it does not mean the it is inherently more accurate. A person who is not recoil sensitive can be just as accurate with a 12 ga. 

Once again, I congratulate you on a fine Deer Killing Machine. The 20 ga is more than adequate to kill deer sized game. 

Everything I'm seeing the ballistics are the same when zeroed at 150 yards. I would like to see what happens to the bigger bullet after 200 yards even though it has more energy at 150. Did you notice "my old deer killing machine" was crying in the background of the last picture?

[Swamprat]

3 hours ago, nmc02 said:

NO doubt the 220 is a longer range slug gun than any 12 gauge. I own a Savage 220 and it is very accurate and would not hesitate to shoot at a deer at 200 yards (I witnessed a buddy drop a doe at 178 yds w his 220). However, my 1100 12 gauge is an amazing shooter from 0-125 yds. That being said, as long as slug is placed in vitals.....both will do the job. 

Bingo.  Critters don't go far when they have a .50-62 caliber hole in the important parts.  

[BHC]

shot placement is key as we all know

the 12ga has more recoil therefore one may flinch effecting accuracy, also the 12ga is larger in diameter therefore it has less aerodynamics 

the 20ga  has less recoil, it flies flatter but it could be effected by wind more so then the 12ga

But overall today's 20ga slugs are world's apart when compared to 20ga slugs from yesteryear, and today's 20ga slugs are just as good as the 12ga when taking game.....Why subject yourself to the recoil

Also look at the strides in recent years with 20ga turkey ammo, vast improvement 

[archer36]

1 hour ago, electric10162 said:

Everything I'm seeing the ballistics are the same when zeroed at 150 yards. I would like to see what happens to the bigger bullet after 200 yards even though it has more energy at 150. Did you notice "my old deer killing machine" was crying in the background of the last picture?

One final thing. You have to realize that the 12 ga has more powder than a 20 ga so they are equally powered for their respective sizes. It's not like a rifle bullet. You can put anything from 120 to 220 grain bullet in a 30.06 and the trajectory of each will be drastically different.  12 ga shell has more powder than a 20 ga so it compensates for the additional weigh of the bullet. 

Thus more recoil also!

Edited June 1, 2021 by archer36

[archer36]

1 hour ago, BHC said:

shot placement is key as we all know

the 12ga has more recoil therefore one may flinch effecting accuracy, also the 12ga is larger in diameter therefore it has less aerodynamics 

the 20ga  has less recoil, it flies flatter but it could be effected by wind more so then the 12ga

But overall today's 20ga slugs are world's apart when compared to 20ga slugs from yesteryear, and today's 20ga slugs are just as good as the 12ga when taking game.....Why subject yourself to the recoil

Also look at the strides in recent years with 20ga turkey ammo, vast improvement 

BHC, I agree with you about advancements in ammo. Any advancement in ammo, whether it's turkey loads, waterfowl loads, or sabot slugs, have been applied to both 12 and 20 ga. The improvements in Turkey loads make using a 20 ga as lethal as a 12 ga of years ago. I remember when die hard Turkey Hunters used 10 ga.  Advancements in ammo has made the 10 ga almost obsolete. But it also made the 12 ga more lethal than before. No matter how good ammo gets, the 12 ga will have an advantage over smaller gauges even though the smaller gauges are sufficient. Will further advances in ammo also make the 12 ga obsolete? Who knows. Ammo improvements have made the 20 ga more efficient and is more than adequate to kill deer sized game as you said. I have nothing against the 20 ga.  There is a lot of "mythology" around many shotgun gauges and rifle calibers and when you look at the facts (ballistics tables) you get the truth. 

Basically we agree. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by archer36

[electric10162]

2 hours ago, archer36 said:

One final thing. You have to realize that the 12 ga has more powder than a 20 ga so they are equally powered for their respective sizes. It's not like a rifle bullet. You can put anything from 120 to 220 grain bullet in a 30.06 and the trajectory of each will be drastically different.  12 ga shell has more powder than a 20 ga so it compensates for the additional weigh of the bullet. 

Thus more recoil also!

Good point. I reload the 300 Weatherby (my caliber of choice) so I'm well aware of amount of powder, vs powder burn rate, case pressure, and  projectile weight. The most "accurate" projectile has been the 2oo grain ELDX while my preferred hunting load is a 180 grain Barnes Vortex or Nosler BT. All else being equal, the 200 grain loses its superiority after about 400 yards or so where the 180 shines out to about 550-600. I could go with a 138 or 150 grain bullet, 4000fps(muzzle), and push the envelope to 750 or so. At a certain range, rifle or shotgun, the weight and ballastic coefficient take over as the driving factor in longer distances. Obviously, the shotgun, because of the slower velocities, are much more susceptible to bullet drop, especially when the projectile weighs 546 grains.

[BillCarson]

I did see your other killing machine in the background, I almost asked about it, but did not want to open another popular topic - shotgun slug shooting versus your muzzleloader - did I see it right? an Encore 50 cal

[electric10162]

2 hours ago, archer36 said:

BHC, I agree with you about advancements in ammo. Any advancement in ammo, whether it's turkey loads, waterfowl loads, or sabot slugs, have been applied to both 12 and 20 ga. The improvements in Turkey loads make using a 20 ga as lethal as a 12 ga of years ago. I remember when die hard Turkey Hunters used 10 ga.  Advancements in ammo has made the 10 ga almost obsolete. But it also made the 12 ga more lethal than before. No matter how good ammo gets, the 12 ga will have an advantage over smaller gauges even though the smaller gauges are sufficient. Will further advances in ammo also make the 12 ga obsolete? Who knows. Ammo improvements have made the 20 ga more efficient and is more than adequate to kill deer sized game as you said. I have nothing against the 20 ga.  There is a lot of "mythology" around many shotgun gauges and rifle calibers and when you look at the facts (ballistics tables) you get the truth. 

Basically we agree. 

I would guess that most NJ hunters do not hunt with a rifle in another state so shotguns are the baseline for their experiences. While the 12 gauge has been the basis for killing deer in this state, the 20 gauge has become the preferred weapon due to its accuracy and lack of recoil. It makes it much easier for children and women to handle. The technology has gotten better due to states having to use shotguns instead of rifles where urban sprawl reigns and ammo manufacturers are catering to those needs. Rifle hunters have long known that bigger isn't always better unless your hunting dangerous African game at less than 75 yards. All great points Archer.

[electric10162]

7 minutes ago, BillCarson said:

I did see your other killing machine in the background, I almost asked about it, but did not want to open another popular topic - shotgun slug shooting versus your muzzleloader - did I see it right? an Encore 50 cal

Yes Sir!

I'm going to be switching from T/C Shockwaves to Barnes Expanders this season. It's still the standard by which the 220 will be measured.

[hammer4reel]

10 hours ago, electric10162 said:

Yes Sir!

I'm going to be switching from T/C Shockwaves to Barnes Expanders this season. It's still the standard by which the 220 will be measured.

Then you will be upset .

‘my buddy’s in ohio shoot a few times a week , he was also one of tarhunts original testers .

‘the muzzle loader will flat out shoot any slug gun on the market .

‘it will clover leaf one jagged hole at distances where a great shotgun group will be 2 or 3” .

 

[archer36]

11 hours ago, electric10162 said:

I would guess that most NJ hunters do not hunt with a rifle in another state so shotguns are the baseline for their experiences. While the 12 gauge has been the basis for killing deer in this state, the 20 gauge has become the preferred weapon due to its accuracy and lack of recoil. It makes it much easier for children and women to handle. The technology has gotten better due to states having to use shotguns instead of rifles where urban sprawl reigns and ammo manufacturers are catering to those needs. Rifle hunters have long known that bigger isn't always better unless your hunting dangerous African game at less than 75 yards. All great points Archer.

This discussion is like having a comparison of a .270 to a .300 Win Mag for example (so many combinations can be made). The .270 with the right bullet can harvest just about any North American game. The exception being a Brown/Grizzly Bear because they can eat you. LOL  Neither caliber is inferior or superior. It depends on the intended use. If you compare ballistics of the two, one looks superior on paper but it does not make the other "inferior".  My first post about the 20 ga was not a criticism of it. Just trying to shed light on long running myths about certain gauge's.

This is also similar to a pet peeve of mine about crossbows. New ones are shooting up to 500 fps. This is far in excess of what's needed to kill a deer at normal ranges so the extra velocity is wasted. But if you can shoot the higher velocity bow with no downside (other than cost), there is no reason not to.  People use Mag Rifle Calibers because they look at ballistics tables and see the numbers. But they cannot shoot them properly. The best weapon is one that can be shot accurately. It's usually not the weapon, it's the shooter. 

In closing, I agree that the Savage Slug Gun platform is a great weapon and more than adequate for harvesting deer and most other North American game at moderate ranges. Enjoy your new piece!