New PTC Training This favors us!!

[BowhunterNJ]

Just now, vdep217 said:

He's referring to in nj where there are very few circumstances you are able to engage that far.  Remember in nj you have a duty to retreat unless in imminent danger of your life

Right, I understand.  I'm just confused by the 75 foot standard for this proficiency test when the normal parameters of a self defense situation are far shorter ranges than that and even self defense classes focus on ranges shorter than that.

[vdep217]

2 minutes ago, BowhunterNJ said:

Right, I understand.  I'm just confused by the 75 foot standard for this proficiency test when the normal parameters of a self defense situation are far shorter ranges than that and even self defense classes focus on ranges shorter than that.

That was one of the issues with nj qualification.   They wanted us to qualify at 25yrds but in the next breath tell us at 75 feet you have to retreat to saftey.   Most self defense scenarios are 7to10 yrds and closer

[BowhunterNJ]

2 minutes ago, vdep217 said:

That was one of the issues with nj qualification.   They wanted us to qualify at 25yrds but in the next breath tell us at 75 feet you have to retreat to saftey.   Most self defense scenarios are 7to10 yrds and closer

Yeah, that makes no sense to me.

[hostak126]

In most circumstances a self defense incident won't be 25 yards. If you are self defensing at a distance of 25 yards that's more than enough for the AG's office and prosecutor to say you didn't retreat. About 5 to 10 yards is where most self defense shootings occur. The Interim training from Mid July to Mid September was so ridiculous I decided to hold out until a qualification more set in stone was established. After talking to Gun for Hire where I did my initial qualification 10/22 I felt it best to wait as the quals were sufficient enough to the July 2023 req's

Late Oct I'll sign up for the requals and 2 hour training to get that out of the way

[BowhunterNJ]

Soooooo why is the shooting qualification at 75 feet?

[DJ0808]

5-10 yds is optimal engagement range for self-defense with a handgun, especially going against an assailant armed with a knife or similar non-firearm implement and even moreso important if you're firearm is holstered and has to be drawn.

This video is a good demonstration of how a modern pistol fares against a knife attacker at 1, 3, and 7 meters:

 

 

At 25yds (75ft), nearly 4 times max distance in this video, I would think in most instances you would likely be able to retreat to a safe position. If you engaged at this distance you're probably looking at a steep up hill battle with the state regarding justifiability. Now on the other hand if you retreat first at this distance and the assailant still comes in closer and pursues you instead of fleeing, then that lends strongly to being justified use of force.

Hopefully none of us will ever be in this type of situation!!!

[MGHunter66]

27 minutes ago, BowhunterNJ said:

Soooooo why is the shooting qualification at 75 feet?

To make it harder and decrease the amount of people that apply or qualify. Most situations where the average citizen will be forced to protect themselves will be almost point blank situations. Yet some yahoos think unless you’re proficient at 25 yrds you shouldn’t have that right. Stupid outlook if you ask me

Edited September 18, 2023 by MGHunter66

[hostak126]

53 minutes ago, BowhunterNJ said:

Soooooo why is the shooting qualification at 75 feet?

There was no need in the first place for quals at 75 feet. When the NYSRPA v. Bruen opinion came out many states like NY and NJ who required justifiable need didn't have a set standard qualification established unless you were applying for a PTC as a RLEO or armored car detail. All of the ranges that were offering qualifications checked with the state police and told them we are doing A, B,C, D, and E, for the PTC qualification. The state police pretty much said that sounds good and you may proceed, because there was no set standardized qualification by the AG's office until now.

The ranges had you shoot out to 25 yards (or 75 feet) to show you are proficient to cover their RSO's rear's in the event a self defense shooting took place and they needed to go to court.  

 

The new qualification is set to a max 15 yards 10 shots each at 3, 5, 7, 10, 15. Eighty percent in the FBI Q target to pass which means you can miss 10 times and still pass. Is the standard qualification as of Mid Sept 2023. The Interim Requirements from July 2023 are those of a LEO were designed make it harder to pass. This was done by design to reduce the amount of PTC's issued.

 

Dan Schmutter asked Judge Bumb to reopen the ANJRPC case as the interim qualifications were egregious. See the link below

https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.anjrpc.org/resource/resmgr/legal_motions___briefs/carry_suit_docs/doc_131-1_-_072623_-_declara.pdf

The new standardized qualifications out to a max of 15 yards were negotiated by Dan with the AG's office. Evan Nappen also assisted Dan.

Edited September 18, 2023 by hostak126

[gonefishing]

36 minutes ago, MGHunter66 said:

To make it harder and decrease the amount of people that apply or qualify. Most situations where the average citizen will be forced to protect themselves will be almost point blank situations. Yet some yahoos think unless you’re proficient at 25 yrds you shouldn’t have that right. Stupid outlook if you ask me

Couldn't agree more. That's why I said what I said.

[BowhunterNJ]

I'm still confused.  You're saying the ranges giving the tests made a CYA call, this has nothing to do with a legal requirement because there wasn't one defined until recently that is set to a max 15 yards 10 shots each at 3, 5, 7, 10, 15. Eighty percent in the FBI Q target to pass which means you can miss 10 times and still pass.  Yet right after that you referenced an Interim Requirements from July 2023 are those of a LEO (which I assume is 75 feet).  Who made that call and was it a legal requirement or simply the testing ranges/instructors defining that because they were CYAing?

[hostak126]

3 minutes ago, BowhunterNJ said:

I'm still confused.  You're saying the ranges giving the tests made a CYA call, this has nothing to do with a legal requirement because there wasn't one defined until recently that is set to a max 15 yards 10 shots each at 3, 5, 7, 10, 15. Eighty percent in the FBI Q target to pass which means you can miss 10 times and still pass.  Yet right after that you referenced an Interim Requirements from July 2023 are those of a LEO (which I assume is 75 feet).  Who made that call and was it a legal requirement or simply the testing ranges/instructors defining that because they were CYAing?

The Interim Req's were supposed to go into effect July 1, 2023 per the "Carry Killer bill" Murphy signed into law on 12/22/2022. The state police were about 18 days late and because of this I believe the LEO qualifications where you had to do timed shoots kneeling, off hand, etc were set in place as the state police weren't working on actually qualifications until someone said they were passed due.

The CYA calls were made by the ranges themselves. For example RTSP required you to have an OWB holster every firearm you wanted to qualify with, but they only had you shoot out to 15 or 20 yards whereas G4H didn't require a holster draw, but wanted you to shoot out to 25 yards as apart of their qualification. These quals were prior to the Interim quals and training of July 2023.

[Livesintrees]

Are they still requiring shooting weak hand, then from a kneee and all the other nonsense? 

[hostak126]

2 minutes ago, Livesintrees said:

Are they still requiring shooting weak hand, then from a kneee and all the other nonsense? 

No, but I'd check with the range first before you go to make sure there isn't any other equipment you'll need

[Livesintrees]

Just now, hostak126 said:

No, but I'd check with the range first before you go to make sure there isn't any other equipment you'll need

Supposedly requal will be holster draw and fire now. And sounds like a classroom style course again 

[hostak126]

Just now, Livesintrees said:

Supposedly requal will be holster draw and fire now. And sounds like a classroom style course again 

classroom will be about 2 hours covering use of force in NJ