Is The Spring Turkey Lottery System Outdated?

[tomturkey]

So in my opinion the problem with the lottery system is that yes back in the day it worked and limited the numbers per zone.

But now all zones can support it.

By giving 200 permits for a week in Zone 20 you are "forcing" 200 guys to hunt zone 20 that week. If they only know 3 public pieces and each one has 3 cars there when they get there they still have to go to one of those spots.

If they could hunt other zones the potential for hunting a different zone, different public without 3 cars could occur

Second issue is a lot of guys who can only hunt a certain week due to work or other obligations is frequently turned down but someone with more availability could get unlimited permits and kill 8, 10 or more birds. Typically the guys buying multiple permits are better turkey hunters.

There is also no resident preference, out of state have equal chance as a local zone X resident.

The 3rd issue is referenced above, to many birds can be taken out of a zone. I lived and hunted in South Jersey, Zones 20 & 21 and the number of birds has gone down significantly.

Do 2 or 3 birds per season without zone limits. And yes revenue is a huge factor so raise the price so Fish & Game will still make what is required.

[vdep217]

12 minutes ago, tomturkey said:

So in my opinion the problem with the lottery system is that yes back in the day it worked and limited the numbers per zone.

But now all zones can support it.

By giving 200 permits for a week in Zone 20 you are "forcing" 200 guys to hunt zone 20 that week. If they only know 3 public pieces and each one has 3 cars there when they get there they still have to go to one of those spots.

If they could hunt other zones the potential for hunting a different zone, different public without 3 cars could occur

Second issue is a lot of guys who can only hunt a certain week due to work or other obligations is frequently turned down but someone with more availability could get unlimited permits and kill 8, 10 or more birds. Typically the guys buying multiple permits are better turkey hunters.

There is also no resident preference, out of state have equal chance as a local zone X resident.

The 3rd issue is referenced above, to many birds can be taken out of a zone. I lived and hunted in South Jersey, Zones 20 & 21 and the number of birds has gone down significantly.

Do 2 or 3 birds per season without zone limits. And yes revenue is a huge factor so raise the price so Fish & Game will still make what is required.

Taking toms during the spring has little effect on overall populations.  Life expectancy is 3 years but don't quote me.  If it were a free for all there would absolutely be saftey issues to many guys in the woods at one time especially on Saturday. 

If a guy only knows 3 pieces to turkey hunt I would say he needs to scout more.  I get not everyone has time but it is what it is..  I save my vacation and take off according to what permits I get.  I do agree however that out of state permits need to be changed so residents have priority.   

For the record I've never taken more than 3 in a season but don't believe guys should be limited if permits are available.  In zones that sell out chances are guys are getting 5 at most

Edited December 29, 2021 by vdep217

[tomturkey]

9 hours ago, vdep217 said:

There's not many guys taking 6 plus Gobblers so it's negligible at best.  Guys that are getting permits are leftover permits many in zones that don't sell out so it's not hurting anything and don't believe it is enough to hurt a new hunter..  im relatively new on my 7th season and from season one was able to call birds in

Vdep I disagree, saw and heard of many guys killing 5 plus in Zones 20,21, 22 and yes they grab multiple permits on leftover Monday. But again guys who could only hunt Saturdays could be turned down.

I was always able to buy permits on leftover Monday and would typically have at least 6 permits. I did limit myself to only taking 2 birds each year.   2 years I did take 3 as they were special birds. And this is my experience based from 1992 on 

 

Bucndoe I would propose maximum number because there are zones where to many birds are taken in my opinion and there are zones that could stand to have more taken. A more experienced hunter can take more birds due to experience than someone newer to turkey hunting, so making a maximum number limits experienced hunter from taking 8 birds so new hunter can have a better chance at a bird since now Zone X will have 5 more birds in it.

   South Jersey does get hit hard and there are also guys who will get a permit for a under sold zone and hunt a SJ zone.

[tomturkey]

Vdep all zones typically have a number of unclaimed permits and on leftover Monday they can buy multiple permits for week A,B,C,D and are only limited to a bird per day if they bought multiple permits.

And yes I would do this just because I loved turkey hunting and wanted to be in the woods. And I did this in Zone 20 & 21 

 

You are correct life expectancy is roughly 3 years but spring hunting and pressure can have an influence of that and is a reason many states are now pushing back the start of spring season.

And again in Zones 20 & 21 I saw and heard where limiting the week to a certain Zone increased the number and pressure in public land. There are only so many public and WMA in each  Zone and I have seen that some of the zones that previously held good numbers of birds in the early mid 2000's are now holding low numbers now.

 

These same zones are unlimited permits but for deer but I don't see a free for all and to many deer hunters on a piece, if a deer hunter sees X number of trucks at WMA #1 he can move on.

 

[vdep217]

17 minutes ago, tomturkey said:

Vdep I disagree, saw and heard of many guys killing 5 plus in Zones 20,21, 22 and yes they grab multiple permits on leftover Monday. But again guys who could only hunt Saturdays could be turned down.

I was always able to buy permits on leftover Monday and would typically have at least 6 permits. I did limit myself to only taking 2 birds each year.   2 years I did take 3 as they were special birds. And this is my experience based from 1992 on 

 

Bucndoe I would propose maximum number because there are zones where to many birds are taken in my opinion and there are zones that could stand to have more taken. A more experienced hunter can take more birds due to experience than someone newer to turkey hunting, so making a maximum number limits experienced hunter from taking 8 birds so new hunter can have a better chance at a bird since now Zone X will have 5 more birds in it.

   South Jersey does get hit hard and there are also guys who will get a permit for a under sold zone and hunt a SJ zone.

The lotto system allows 2 permits regardless so guys buying leftovers isn't hurting anyone's chances at getting drawn.  Everyone now has the same oppurtunity to buy leftovers when they go otc with cell phones today so that guy buying extras has no impact on the guy that did not get drawn in lotto.

[vdep217]

9 minutes ago, tomturkey said:

Vdep all zones typically have a number of unclaimed permits and on leftover Monday they can buy multiple permits for week A,B,C,D and are only limited to a bird per day if they bought multiple permits.

And yes I would do this just because I loved turkey hunting and wanted to be in the woods. And I did this in Zone 20 & 21 

 

You are correct life expectancy is roughly 3 years but spring hunting and pressure can have an influence of that and is a reason many states are now pushing back the start of spring season.

And again in Zones 20 & 21 I saw and heard where limiting the week to a certain Zone increased the number and pressure in public land. There are only so many public and WMA in each  Zone and I have seen that some of the zones that previously held good numbers of birds in the early mid 2000's are now holding low numbers now.

 

These same zones are unlimited permits but for deer but I don't see a free for all and to many deer hunters on a piece, if a deer hunter sees X number of trucks at WMA #1 he can move on.

 

There are also studies that show state that reintroduced turkeys to build to a stable population have a massive increase in bird numbers than a drop than back up to a plateu evening out.  I think that is where we are but could be wrong.

Imo you cannot compare deer and turkey hunting its apples and oranges..  you know turkeys are basically concentrated in one area of a given place especially in spring.  I'm not saying there can not be adjustments to make it better but making decisions on feeling bad for new turkey hunters isn't the way to do it..   there needs to be clear data to back the change.

  And if change is warranted civil debate here is great but we need to bring it higher to tge federation to get change.

[tomturkey]

Vdep it has been discussed by the federation and NWTF but the wheels turn slowly and I have been out of Jersey for 3 years now.

Great debate

[vdep217]

3 minutes ago, tomturkey said:

Vdep it has been discussed by the federation and NWTF but the wheels turn slowly and I have been out of Jersey for 3 years now.

Great debate

I'm not as active as I once was in the federation youth hunts  and hunter ed as I once was.  I still try n get youths out and do the waterfowl days n turkey hunts when I can.  But life happens n with a family of my own now time constraints hinder that.

[Devil Horns]

I don't know how guys hunting the more popular zones get leftover permits for all weeks. I hunt zone 14 and the leftovers are sold out within minutes of being released. I can usually get a D week permit in the leftovers but don't always get both permits in the lottery. I apply for A and E in the lottery and there have been years when I only got one of them. 

 

[Fred Flintstone]

6 hours ago, Bucndoe said:

There is already. In 2021 NJ had allotted 5455 permits to be issued statewide all across the state. Not all of them sold, and not all the tags of those sold were filled. So why would you propose a maximum number of birds per hunter when so many aren't filled in the first place ?

https://www.nj.gov/dep/fgw/pdf/2021/turkpermit_quotachart21.pdf

What you are really defending  is the ability under this System for any one Man to be able to go out and Kill as many Gobblers that they want for all Time Periods and possibly  in 2 or 3 Zones and enjoy a Turkey Hunting Paradise of never ending Kills.

   The problem  with that is each Spring more + more Spring Hunters will be doing this also and most likely staying off Social Media. Why?-- Because their Peers will see them as simply being Greedy- plain+ simple.

  Now a new Turkey Hunter or someone who may only be able to get out a few times also would be Thrilled to take that 1 2 year old Gobbler that is easy for the most skilled to call in. As,I already wrote- these Spring Turkey Hunters stand no chance on Public Lands to call in that Gobbler with the guy looking for Gobbler #8 is hunting close by.

[Fred Flintstone]

1 hour ago, tomturkey said:

Vdep I disagree, saw and heard of many guys killing 5 plus in Zones 20,21, 22 and yes they grab multiple permits on leftover Monday. But again guys who could only hunt Saturdays could be turned down.

I was always able to buy permits on leftover Monday and would typically have at least 6 permits. I did limit myself to only taking 2 birds each year.   2 years I did take 3 as they were special birds. And this is my experience based from 1992 on 

 

Bucndoe I would propose maximum number because there are zones where to many birds are taken in my opinion and there are zones that could stand to have more taken. A more experienced hunter can take more birds due to experience than someone newer to turkey hunting, so making a maximum number limits experienced hunter from taking 8 birds so new hunter can have a better chance at a bird since now Zone X will have 5 more birds in it.

   South Jersey does get hit hard and there are also guys who will get a permit for a under sold zone and hunt a SJ zone.

Bingo. Spread those Spring Kills out over 2 or 3 States. 2 Gobblers are possible  in New York. 2 are possible  in Pennsylvania  if you buy the 2nd Tag on time, and 3 should be the Limit in New Jersey.

  That is 7 Gobblers if you have the Skill + Luck to achieve  that. 

[Bucndoe]

21 minutes ago, Fred Flintstone said:

What you are really defending  is the ability under this System for any one Man to be able to go out and Kill as many Gobblers that they want for all Time Periods and possibly  in 2 or 3 Zones and enjoy a Turkey Hunting Paradise of never ending Kills.

   The problem  with that is each Spring more + more Spring Hunters will be doing this also and most likely staying off Social Media. Why?-- Because their Peers will see them as simply being Greedy- plain+ simple.

  Now a new Turkey Hunter or someone who may only be able to get out a few times also would be Thrilled to take that 1 2 year old Gobbler that is easy for the most skilled to call in. As,I already wrote- these Spring Turkey Hunters stand no chance on Public Lands to call in that Gobbler with the guy looking for Gobbler #8 is hunting close by.

I don't see it that way at all. If that is happening at all it is very, very minimal. Look at the number of permits that are NEVER SOLD. There are opportunities there with every single one not sold. Look at the chart from 2021 and see how many never sold. When I hunt almost any species I have to drive to a place where the species are and I have an opportunity to harvest. Why you buy the permit you are buying the guarantee of an opportunity to harvest, not a guarantee of a harvest. When you go fishing you go to where the fish are. That's why some zones sell out. I have hunted at least one day of every permit I ever bought with the exception of Sterling Forest. I buy it every year but either don't use it or I shot my birds elsewhere in NY. 

My only suggestion to the lottery is to have have the first one for residents only and the second for including non-residents before going to the over the counter

Edited December 29, 2021 by Bucndoe

[vdep217]

23 minutes ago, Fred Flintstone said:

Bingo. Spread those Spring Kills out over 2 or 3 States. 2 Gobblers are possible  in New York. 2 are possible  in Pennsylvania  if you buy the 2nd Tag on time, and 3 should be the Limit in New Jersey.

  That is 7 Gobblers if you have the Skill + Luck to achieve  that. 

Show me facts and data to support your case.  Right now all I see is emotion and feelings.  There have been facts supporting keeping it the way it is.  Ie left over tags tags not filled stable harvest etc. Wich is why there is a formula used for tags available vs bird population.

  I will not count the saftey aspect as fact

[Fred Flintstone]

2 hours ago, vdep217 said:

Show me facts and data to support your case.  Right now all I see is emotion and feelings.  There have been facts supporting keeping it the way it is.  Ie left over tags tags not filled stable harvest etc. Wich is why there is a formula used for tags available vs bird population.

  I will not count the saftey aspect as fact

I need no official  data to back up my points  on this Thread.  

These are my Thoughts . And they come from a Turkey Hunter as Skilled as anyone on this Site.

  I stand by my stance that no one Man should be taking upwards of 6,7,8 or more Gobblers in such a Small State such as New Jersey.

  Obviously  more then a few are a bit pissed that,I brought up such a Touchly and obviously  off limits Topic.

A Healthy  back + forth on Subjects is part of this site and others like it.

 Most likely others would like to take part in this debate- but don't  want to get jumped on.

 There would probably  be hordes of Turkey Hunters on New York Site who would be aghast  at the amount of Gobblers any one Man in the know can take in New Jersey.

[Buckeyes11]

Keep the lottery system but limit each hunter to 2 birds per year regardless of amount of permits purchased.