Question for electricians.

[electric10162]

Since there's only one real "electric" on here......do you need help @Lunatic?

[tjfslaughter]

2 hours ago, hammer4reel said:

It used to be legal to share neutrals for multiple circuits . It’s not allowed anymore, unless breakers are pinned together (like a 2 pole breaker ) 

code was changed to make sure someone didn’t get shocked if only turning off 1 circuit , and because many times neutrals  were not spliced , and a device screw was used to carry the neutral through .

also where he said a wire has to be from each side of the panel wasn’t correct .

phases in panel are every other breaker on both sides of the panel .

 

when you shared a neutral you needed one hot  leg on A phase and one On B phase 

For some reason I thought that if you pulled from the 2 different hot legs coming in you were legal.  I see what you are saying with double breakers.  I was trying to say the same thing but typing doesn’t always convey the message well.  I required my entire house with a new service years back with permits.  The electrical inspector was happy with my work.  Anything over 240 I don’t play with. 

[hammer4reel]

9 minutes ago, tjfslaughter said:

For some reason I thought that if you pulled from the 2 different hot legs coming in you were legal.  I see what you are saying with double breakers.  I was trying to say the same thing but typing doesn’t always convey the message well.  I required my entire house with a new service years back with permits.  The electrical inspector was happy with my work.  Anything over 240 I don’t play with. 

Was legal for many years but , changed in 2011 .

 

look at 200.4

 

.

Edited February 20 by hammer4reel

[Lunatic]

11 minutes ago, electric10162 said:

Since there's only one real "electric" on here......do you need help @Lunatic?

I do and I’m getting it. I didn’t think there was a simple solution but it didn’t hurt to ask 

thanks anyway 

[hammer4reel]

2 minutes ago, Lunatic said:

I do and I’m getting it. I didn’t think there was a simple solution but it didn’t hurt to ask 

thanks anyway 

Simple solution is to run 2 dedicated circuits , and put an outlet for each device 

[electric10162]

1 minute ago, tjfslaughter said:

For some reason I thought that if you pulled from the 2 different hot legs coming in you were legal.  I see what you are saying with double breakers.  I was trying to say the same thing but typing doesn’t always convey the message well.  I required my entire house with a new service years back with permits.  The electrical inspector was happy with my work.  Anything over 240 I don’t play with. 

So I will take over for @hammer4reelbecause he's retired and busy doing what retired electricians do.

So, back in the day, houses were wired with three wire cable to save money. Two phase conductors, a neutral, and a ground which could be put on two single fuses or circuit breakers. The problem with that is the first receptacle or light, the box has 240 volts in it. The neutral is there to carry the unbalanced load....ie difference in amperage draw between the two circuits. So you could turn off one circuit and the other would still be on. Dangerous for someone who doesn't know the other circuit is still on. 

In the 2011 code, we changed to putting that multi wire branch  circuit on a 2 pole circuit breaker to eliminate overloading of the neutral which is only rated for 16 amps. The theory is if you overload one of the circuits, the breaker will trip alleviating the potential overload of the neutral which could cause a fire. 

[hammer4reel]

2 minutes ago, electric10162 said:

So I will take over for @hammer4reelbecause he's retired and busy doing what retired electricians do.

So, back in the day, houses were wired with three wire cable to save money. Two phase conductors, a neutral, and a ground which could be put on two single fuses or circuit breakers. The problem with that is the first receptacle or light, the box has 240 volts in it. The neutral is there to carry the unbalanced load....ie difference in amperage draw between the two circuits. So you could turn off one circuit and the other would still be on. Dangerous for someone who doesn't know the other circuit is still on. 

In the 2011 code, we changed to putting that multi wire branch  circuit on a 2 pole circuit breaker to eliminate overloading of the neutral which is only rated for 16 amps. The theory is if you overload one of the circuits, the breaker will trip alleviating the potential overload of the neutral which could cause a fire. 

I’m busy making bucktails , and Ned rig heads .

cast and paint , repeat and rinse 

[hammer4reel]

10 minutes ago, electric10162 said:

So I will take over for @hammer4reelbecause he's retired and busy doing what retired electricians do.

So, back in the day, houses were wired with three wire cable to save money. Two phase conductors, a neutral, and a ground which could be put on two single fuses or circuit breakers. The problem with that is the first receptacle or light, the box has 240 volts in it. The neutral is there to carry the unbalanced load....ie difference in amperage draw between the two circuits. So you could turn off one circuit and the other would still be on. Dangerous for someone who doesn't know the other circuit is still on. 

In the 2011 code, we changed to putting that multi wire branch  circuit on a 2 pole circuit breaker to eliminate overloading of the neutral which is only rated for 16 amps. The theory is if you overload one of the circuits, the breaker will trip alleviating the potential overload of the neutral which could cause a fire. 

And the requirements of NPF 70 E  130.2 requires the shared circuits to be put into a safe work condition when working on the circuits 

 

and while the requirements of 70E are there to protect electricians , after working HOT for more than a few decades made some of our job more  difficult ,

especially in hospitals and Data centers .

 

Edited February 20 by hammer4reel

[electric10162]

26 minutes ago, hammer4reel said:

Simple solution is to run 2 dedicated circuits , and put an outlet for each device 

AND

All new circuits are required to be on Arc Fault type circuit breakers. Except for HVAC equipment.....but that will change in the 2026 code.

Edited February 20 by electric10162

[hammer4reel]

6 minutes ago, electric10162 said:

AND

All new circuits are required to be on Arc Fault type circuit breakers.

Not entirely , unfinished basements , garages , bathrooms 

 

stop making me think about work Andy lol

besides if I have to think about work I want it to be 277/480 up to 35K

Edited February 20 by hammer4reel

[electric10162]

16 minutes ago, hammer4reel said:

Not entirely , unfinished basements , garages , bathrooms 

 

stop making me think about work Andy lol

besides if I have to think about work I want it to be 277/480 up to 35K

Correct. My bad. It's crazy that laundry rooms are and bathrooms and garages are not. My brand new Frigidaire refrigerator and GE gas dryer both trip the arc faults. Exactly the reason we don't do resi work. Pain in the ass. 

Sorry Dan. You'll never get away from it. Soon I would like to be in your boat.....pardon the pun

Edited February 20 by electric10162

[tjfslaughter]

30 minutes ago, hammer4reel said:

Not entirely , unfinished basements , garages , bathrooms 

 

stop making me think about work Andy lol

besides if I have to think about work I want it to be 277/480 up to 35K

It’s frustrating that AFCI’s pop easily.  A simple fan or window AC unit at max locked rotator amps will pop them.   I’m not current on code.  That’s why I hire guys. But honestly if I need a dedicated circuit installed I can handle it. 

[hammer4reel]

18 minutes ago, electric10162 said:

Correct. My bad. It's crazy that laundry rooms are and bathrooms and garages are not. My brand new Frigidaire refrigerator and GE gas dryer both trip the arc faults. Exactly the reason we don't do resi work. Pain in the ass. 

Sorry Dan. You'll never get away from it. Soon I would like to be in your boat.....pardon the pun

Laundry room is more than likely added when it’s in the living environment because of lint . 
NJ refused those code changes for many years . Actually very surprised they adopted them , because it was 2 full  code changes before it actually went into effect ..

‘I liked pipe and wire , distribution. Building power plants , explosion proof , controls , splicing etc .

house wiring is WAY too boring 

[electric10162]

27 minutes ago, hammer4reel said:

‘I liked pipe and wire , distribution. Building power plants , explosion proof , controls , splicing etc .

house wiring is WAY too boring 

When I started as an apprentice, all we did was explosion proof piping and wiring. I ran that old Rigid threader everyday for six months. My hands were cutting oil brown for probably 8 months. I cut my teeth in every machine shop in Belleville, Newark, and Harrison. Ah the good old days.

Edited February 20 by electric10162

[Alltickedup]

14 hours ago, tjfslaughter said:

I'm not an Electrician but I dabble.  

 

1.  When you say fuse.  I am assuming you are talking about a breaker?  If it is a fuse you definitely need a panel upgrade.

2. If this was my house I would  run 12-3 wire (red, white black) and have a 4 gang box with 2 separate circuits, one for the lathe, and one for the vac.  You can use the 12/3 as long as the 2 breakers are not on the same side of the panel.

3.  Do you have LED's for lighting?  This will also reduce amperage if needed.  

 

Should use a double pole breaker in that application.  Avoids the possibility of having voltage potential on neutral from other circuit, if both breaker weren't turned off.