Are We Beginning to See the Effects of High Grading?

[tcook8296]

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The deer arent getting what they need  to have the excess to go towards bigger rakcs

Deer around me, don't matter if you fed them the best feed money can buy, when every buck gets shot as soon as it walks, it doesn't matter what they eat. No age, no protection. That's whats effecting NJs bucks the most. Also, the season is way too long, our deer are way too stressed and worn down. Their bodies are way behind on the nutrients compared to states where the hunting season ends earlier.

In Illinois, the season ended almost 2 weeks ago. The deer out there will be a full 6 weeks ahead of our deer here in NJ. As Dan said, the soil makes a big difference too if they survive past 2 1/2. The deer we pass always seem to get bigger next year.

Edited January 26, 2016 by tcook8296

[Rusty]

 Also, the season is way too long, our deer are way too stressed and worn down. Their bodies are way behind on the nutrients compared to states where the hunting season ends earlier.

In Illinois, the season ended almost 2 weeks ago. The deer out there will be a full 6 weeks ahead of our deer here in NJ.

 

You're right, January-March is a tough time on the deer and it doesn't help if we are out there chasing them around. 

[DV1]

I'd like to see a study done to see how it's actually worked out here. We have a great opportunity with some of these Southern zones that have APR's for 15 years to see if antler size is decreasing due to APR's. Over the next 2 seasons, have qualified people visit butchers and taxidermist to age deer and measure the same antler characteristics they previously collected at check stations before eliminating them. Compare that data to the same information collected at check stations in the 1999, and 2000 seasons. 

 

Unfortunately, I don't trust the Division to do this. I've seen them twist and misrepresent information so badly in the past, a third party would have to be involved in the new collection and comparison. The Division only needs to release the old data.

[Rusty]

I'd like to see a study done to see how it's actually worked out here. We have a great opportunity with some of these Southern zones that have APR's for 15 years to see if antler size is decreasing due to APR's. Over the next 2 seasons, have qualified people visit butchers and taxidermist to age deer and measure the same antler characteristics they previously collected at check stations before eliminating them. Compare that data to the same information collected at check stations in the 1999, and 2000 seasons.  

 

I agree, it would be great to compare antler scores before and after APRs to have hard data on what is occurring here in NJ.  Unfortunately, to do it right we really needed to have scored a large sample of bucks, from a specific area, before APRS were implemented.  We don't have that initial data to make a comparison.   

[Palawman30]

You are not seeing the effects o high grading...you are seeing the effects of 6 buck per hunter.

 

We've total across the whole state Ar for 16 years now and if it showed up anywhere it would be in Pa. The bucks are bigger and better than ever!

WE HAVE A 1 BUCK PER YEAR LIMIT....

 

High grading cannot be an issue if over harvest is not an issue...

In jersey over harvest of legal bucks is an issue.

Back down on how many buck each hunter is allowed to kill and the the effects of high grading are neglible.

Keep the herd truly balanced.

I do not understand why dcrn has declared war on the doe herd while trying to kill only bigger bucks...that's ass backwards

The WHOLE herd needs managing. Not just doe and AR legal buck.

 

The cure..

Kill does within reason and scale back the buck kill to 1 per hunter per year..

High grading solved

[DV1]

I agree, it would be great to compare antler scores before and after APRs to have hard data on what is occurring here in NJ.  Unfortunately, to do it right we really needed to have scored a large sample of bucks, from a specific area, before APRS were implemented.  We don't have that initial data to make a comparison.   

I don't think we need to use scores. We could use the data they previously collected (beam diameter, number of points, age, weight) from the years preceding APR's, and compare it to now. As far as pure antler score, the pool would not be as big but when trying to determine if APR's have damaged genetics, the measurements listed could be used, as I believe they were also in the University of Mississippi study. Using antler score alone would not be as conclusive as these other metrics anyhow.

 

Measuring the beam diameter and number of points vs age of the bucks from 1999 and 2000 and comparing it to 2016 and 2017 will give us a pretty good idea if the genetics have been damaged or not. 

Edited January 26, 2016 by DV1

[JHbowhunter]

I have been spouting off ad-nauseum about "2 flexible buck tags per calendar year"... I seriously doubt 1 buck a year would ever fly, but I would be all for it. I am anxious to see if the division heeds our warnings about stopping unlimited antlerless in the totally beat down zones as well...

[DV1]

I have been spouting off ad-nauseum about "2 flexible buck tags per calendar year"... I seriously doubt 1 buck a year would ever fly, but I would be all for it. I am anxious to see if the division heeds our warnings about stopping unlimited antlerless in the totally beat down zones as well...

The problem is what you/we consider a "beat down" zone and what they consider a "beat down" zone is usually very different.

[smoking gun]

It'll never fly jack you know this state is in the pie along with the insurance claims they want all the deer decimated plus as a incentive they make money off sales of license in permits.i don't even think this state is worth buying all these permits buck stubs and crap.im at a crossroads myself.i either hunt next year or I don't or I go out of state for 1 week and have the chance at a big buck instead of hunting average nj bucks and does

[Palawman30]

AR really does work. When it's truly allowed to work. I'm not a trophy hunter by any means. I do like to try to shoot bigger bucks but I'll just as easily shoot a doe over a scrub buck.

Ar was the best thing that ever happened to Pa.

Not because of bigger racks...

Because of bigger body sizes!

The average 1.5yr buck pre Ar was 90lb.

That's now 120lb.

A 3.5 deer used to be 120lb

Now it's 180lb..

Why?

Dropped the doe numbers

Allowed the habitat to rebound

Gave almost all 1.5 year old bucks a pass

The entire herd has rebounded with proper breeding (short intense rut)

Proper birthing windows- helps curb coyote and bear predation...

 

A healthy herd starts with your doe..

It creates proper age structure up and down the line.

 

I'm absolutely positive jersey deer biologist know this full well.

They are trying to balance hunters wants and needs with an even bigger public wants and needs hence the kill all mentality.

[Rusty]

I have been spouting off ad-nauseum about "2 flexible buck tags per calendar year"... I seriously doubt 1 buck a year would ever fly, but I would be all for it. I am anxious to see if the division heeds our warnings about stopping unlimited antlerless in the totally beat down zones as well...

 

I agree 100%.

[Axiom]

 

Are we beginning to see the effects of high grading in these areas?

 

 no, NJ zones are too small..  plenty of "outsiders" to move in

[tcook8296]

It'll never fly jack you know this state is in the pie along with the insurance claims they want all the deer decimated plus as a incentive they make money off sales of license in permits.i don't even think this state is worth buying all these permits buck stubs and crap.im at a crossroads myself.i either hunt next year or I don't or I go out of state for 1 week and have the chance at a big buck instead of hunting average nj bucks and does

Trophy hunting in NJ is very frustrating. People just can not let a buck walk. I find it much more enjoyable outside of NJ to trophy hunt. It Gives me something to look forward to every year. Gets me away from the back yard hunting, the corn piles, the trespassers, the poachers, the thieves, the brown and down.I can still shoot a doe here in NJ for the freezer and maybe have a chance at 120 inch deer here at home, but if you like big head gear, you need to hunt where you have a chance at killing a buck that is allowed to mature and reach its potential. Even if you don't get one, the anticipation , travel, meeting new people, making new friends along the way and a realistic chance at a good buck makes it all worth it.

[smoking gun]

Trophy hunting in NJ is very frustrating. People just can not let a buck walk. I find it much more enjoyable outside of NJ to trophy hunt. It Gives me something to look forward to every year. Gets me away from the back yard hunting, the corn piles, the trespassers, the poachers, the thieves, the brown and down.I can still shoot a doe here in NJ for the freezer and maybe have a chance at 120 inch deer here at home, but if you like big head gear, you need to hunt where you have a chance at killing a buck that is allowed to mature and reach its potential. Even if you don't get one, the anticipation , travel, meeting new people, making new friends along the way and a realistic chance at a good buck makes it all worth it.

your god damn right about that.everything you said I feel the same way about.

[outdoorslife]

I agree with most of these recent statements. Would be ALL IN for one buck tag and believe there is no way this state will let that fly. I think 2 flex buck tags is a reach (again in this state) but between that and knocking back or redetermining the unlimted antlerless zones (private vs state land/wma etc)...we would see a rebound relatively quick. 

 

I have been slowly looking into and researching DIY out of state hunts each year and would like it to become a yearly thing but right now with the 8 month old and trying my best not to ruin my relationship with my fiance (shes a great MOM!) with hunting too much (never such a thing but...you know) its been tough to pull the trigger. My day will come. I am determined to learn and grow with this awesome sport we all love to participate in and care about. I just hope NJ starts to turn this into a more hunter friendly state with rules and regs. A little can go a LONG way.