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This illegal immigration debate is wild. An American kid dies in Camden from drugs or a gunshot and democrats do nothing, but they will sucks the deek of illegal alien 

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11 minutes ago, Batsto said:

This illegal immigration debate is wild. An American kid dies in Camden from drugs or a gunshot and democrats do nothing, but they will sucks the deek of illegal alien 

Votes and power, Democrats cannot get enough of either one. The dead kid cannot vote. Actually he likely can as long as its for Hillary.

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Call me crazy but since the free market determines all things, wouldn't it make more sense (and cost much less) to cut off the supply of jobs for anyone who is not in this country legally?  Illegal immigration is almost entirely driven by the lure of employment.  When is the last time you saw a business owner heavily fined or sent to prison for employing illegal immigrants?  Every once in a while some high profile individual (politician/celebrity, etc...) gets their hand slapped for having an illegal immigrant as a nanny, but that's it.  When is the last time anyone saw the owner of a large construction company, farm, or meat packing plant fined out of business or imprisoned for employing illegal immigrants?  The fines and/or proceeds from assets of the businesses seized and auctioned could be dedicated to border security.  Between increased border enforcement and the lack of available work, illegal immigration would dry up quickly. 

The dedicated penalty model works well here in NJ with fire code.  If you violate fire code and are fined, a portion of that penalty goes into a trust account for your local fire department, the reasoning being that if a building or buildings in their jurisdiction is in violation of the code, it makes it more likely that they may have to one day save that building, and that they should get something in return to spend on training, equipment, etc...  Admittedly, this would not solve the border's drug problem, but I'm lost on that one.  Never touched the stuff nor had the desire...I don't really understand the "heroin epidemic" either.  I don't see how a bunch of degenerates doping themselves into oblivion is a problem for normal working people.

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14 hours ago, deadonshot2 said:

 As far as looking and seeing how the country is doing? Well the great stock market is nothing but average for the two years combined,

What average? That is nowhere close to being true. In Obama's tenure, the DJI climbed approximately 9000 points in 8 years. Under Trump first 2 years, approximately 6000 points. 

we lost tons of businesses despite those tax cuts.

Tons of businesses? How about being realistic. The reason you will not be is because specific facts completely destroy your point. Even Obama acknowledges the economy is setting records for job creation, wage increases, etc. he is just trying to take credit for it, which is a joke. Anyone who knows anything about economics, and isn't a political hack, will tell you the combination of deregulation and tax cuts have caused the record economy. The policy argument is whether the deregulation is good or bad, and whether the Government can do better things with our (and corp) tax money than we can. 

Those $1,000 bonuses walmart gave out last year-- funny how they didn't repeat that this year. 

It hasn't even been a year yet, but they might not give out more bonuses, who knows. My son works for Walmart though and he did get another bonus, and a significant pay raise. His taxes are also still lower, as are ours, and about 80 percent of workers in the country. Again, the policy argument is whether that money should be spent how we want, or give it to the Government and let them decide. It's clear you've come down on the side to give it to the Government but most here disagree. 

You and my taxs in the meantime are reverting back towards the old rates while these companies are enjoying that 20+% savings.

No, my tax rates are staying at the cut rate again this year, and the year after, and the year after, and so on. We are enjoying the savings just like those companies, who actually ARE passing some of it on in the way of higher wages (3.2 % wage increase, biggest in decades), new jobs, and even some bonuses, which you poo-pooed. 

You are believing it is doing better because trump tells you it is.

No, it's actual data, economic data, that proves it's doing fantastic. You are believing it's not better because you hate Trump, and you consume news sources that provide confirmation bias for you, that's it. You are being lied to. 

Bush lied about wmd's that led to hundreds of dead americans. Have that same outrage about him as the four americans in benghazi.  

The biggest Media pushed Democratic lie is this one, maybe biggest in history (the Trump-Russia Collusion may eclipse it though). Fact is, we found over 5000 WMD munitions in Iraq, some of it even more pure and deadly than we had thought. Much of it was classified, to the point where the Military would not even allow treatment for chemical weapon related injuries, or when they did, they called it something else, and even when they revealed what they were to the injured, they were told it's classified and they could be charged if they revealed it. When it did become known...when Operation Avarice was declassified in 2014...the Media largely ignored it. The "Bush lied" cry is just as false as the "Trump colluded with Russia" lie. You obviously have no idea what is really going on. Below is a link to some facts on the intelligence provided to the Bush Administration, as well as Congress, leading up to the decision to go into Iraq. You decide if he lied for yourself. This was 15 years worth of intel, where the US, the UN, and other countries all agreed what was there. What changed was the fact that we were hit hard on September 11, and now the possibility of what we knew was in Iraq, could be deployed here, became very real. Not only possible, but probable. 

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/verbatim/29672/cia-defends-assessment-of-iraqi-wmds-(dec.-2).html

 

Your problem is that you hate Trump, and it comes through in all your posts. You do not articulate valid policy differences, you just lob insults at him (mostly lies you get from anti-Trump media and politicians), and that's all you have. This gets so heated because it's clear to people who actually look at policy, and what's good and bad for America, that you, and most of his critics, have nothing but insults to stand on for criticism. You cannot possibly believe that we are worse off economically, or internationally, than we were under Obama. You must want open borders (and the crime and expense to taxpayers that comes with it) to not want the barrier, you must want higher taxes to hate the tax cut. Your view, and the few others like you, is vastly different than most here so I would like to actually see some policy discussion from you, defend your positions, not just Trump is a con man, a racist, he colluded with Russia, he's a fraud, blah, blah, blah. That is all just campaign mud slinging and lies they are still throwing around. The Media and Democrats are still running the 2016 campaign, Trump is trying to run the country. Tell us why you would rather have Hillary and her policies...your policies...don't just lob insults.

Edited by DV1
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3 hours ago, Swamp_Yankee said:

Call me crazy but since the free market determines all things, wouldn't it make more sense (and cost much less) to cut off the supply of jobs for anyone who is not in this country legally?  Illegal immigration is almost entirely driven by the lure of employment.  When is the last time you saw a business owner heavily fined or sent to prison for employing illegal immigrants?  Every once in a while some high profile individual (politician/celebrity, etc...) gets their hand slapped for having an illegal immigrant as a nanny, but that's it.  When is the last time anyone saw the owner of a large construction company, farm, or meat packing plant fined out of business or imprisoned for employing illegal immigrants?  The fines and/or proceeds from assets of the businesses seized and auctioned could be dedicated to border security.  Between increased border enforcement and the lack of available work, illegal immigration would dry up quickly. 

The dedicated penalty model works well here in NJ with fire code.  If you violate fire code and are fined, a portion of that penalty goes into a trust account for your local fire department, the reasoning being that if a building or buildings in their jurisdiction is in violation of the code, it makes it more likely that they may have to one day save that building, and that they should get something in return to spend on training, equipment, etc...  Admittedly, this would not solve the border's drug problem, but I'm lost on that one.  Never touched the stuff nor had the desire...I don't really understand the "heroin epidemic" either.  I don't see how a bunch of degenerates doping themselves into oblivion is a problem for normal working people.

Such laws do exist in certain states like Arizona if I recall correctly. Not sure if they still exist and what type of enforcement is involved. However, if you take a look at who is putting the most money into opposing closing the border and what politicians they donate to you will have your answer as to why we don't have this type of legislation on a federal level.

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Would you defend the guy who put you out of business because he could out litigate you (like trump did to contractors in AC)  because he gave you a tax cut? Or how about you found out that trump U degree you paid tens of thousands of dollars for was worthless? Not looking for a saint, but also not willing to accept additional corruption.


 

my guess is deadonshot is either on of these or someone he knows is....i get it but i also hear the stories of how good he was to his workers taking time out to talk to them personally help some that needed help even taking a new worker to lunch to get to know him. business is business some times it sucks. but i respect his opinion even though it seems to me he bases it on emotion . if you open your eyes a little its not hard to see that big  business and politics is all based on lies ( how else does a career politician gain a net worth in the 100's of million when starting with nothing and business men lie and decieve to get rich its part of the business. its up to we the people to form our own opinions even the so called facts everyone relies on are suspect  facts are only as good and honest as those who give them....JMO  

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1 hour ago, newjerseyhunter said:

Such laws do exist in certain states like Arizona if I recall correctly. Not sure if they still exist and what type of enforcement is involved. However, if you take a look at who is putting the most money into opposing closing the border and what politicians they donate to you will have your answer as to why we don't have this type of legislation on a federal level.

The laws do exist on the federal level.  Every once in a blue moon ICE raids some meat packing plant down south and ends up deporting a bunch of people, but you never hear what happens to the people who hired them, probably because what happens is nothing.  Then once ICE leaves they just do the same thing over again.  Whether you are Tyson Chicken or some homeowner hiring a day laborer to clean the gutters the penalties should be the same.

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8 hours ago, DV1 said:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/verbatim/29672/cia-defends-assessment-of-iraqi-wmds-(dec.-2).html

 

Your problem is that you hate Trump, and it comes through in all your posts. You do not articulate valid policy differences, you just lob insults at him (mostly lies you get from anti-Trump media and politicians), and that's all you have. This gets so heated because it's clear to people who actually look at policy, and what's good and bad for America, that you, and most of his critics, have nothing but insults to stand on for criticism. You cannot possibly believe that we are worse off economically, or internationally, than we were under Obama. You must want open borders (and the crime and expense to taxpayers that comes with it) to not want the barrier, you must want higher taxes to hate the tax cut. Your view, and the few others like you, is vastly different than most here so I would like to actually see some policy discussion from you, defend your positions, not just Trump is a con man, a racist, he colluded with Russia, he's a fraud, blah, blah, blah. That is all just campaign mud slinging and lies they are still throwing around. The Media and Democrats are still running the 2016 campaign, Trump is trying to run the country. Tell us why you would rather have Hillary and her policies...your policies...don't just lob insults.

The average I speak of is the return on my 401K is no different after the first two years with trump. He had a stellar year in his first year and this past year stunk the place up. So overall for the two years it only amounts to average returns on the 401K.

The businesses I speak of are the amount of retailers that have folded despite great tax savings. And then you have others still moving out of the country. Trump bitched about the AT&T merger, yet not one peep about trying to save an iconic company like Toys R Us. I have given details about TRU previously.

Your son obviously has a position that is eligible for a bonus. I speak about the one that walmart used as a publicity stunt last year-- let me know when they hand out $1,000 bonuses to every worker again this year. The tax cut was a snow job. The bill had to give middle class something to hide the corporate greed. If it was a fair deal to begin with they would not have tried to rush a second bill for an additional middle class tax cut. Or are they doing it from the kindness of their hearts because we have this huge surplus of cash laying around? 

How do you get I want open borders? I want new stronger laws that make it less appealing to come in the first place. Once they hit our soil they have certain rights under own laws-- that is messed up. So how does a wall stop it from happening 100%-- it doesn't. Does a few new immigration laws stop it 100%? Nope. But one costs 25B and the other is paid with the current salaries being paid to the people elected to enact such laws. But if your opinion is so strong about needing this wall please show us a cancelled check, bank record, etc of the thousands of dollars you donated to the gofundme account for the wall. 

And for ten millionth time-- I did not vote for obama or hillary so why you keep trying to use that is beyond belief. The hatred of trump is another dead horse. I will say it one more time for you. I do not trust Trump one bit. You are not a horrible person, self centered for 70 years of your life and wake up and become this people loving person who wants everyone in the country to share the wealth. His record of fraud is well known. You know how he cheated contractors in AC, Trump U, Trump Charity to name a few for you. And when you are going to tweet lies on a daily basis, I probably will never believe anything he has to say. He was supposed to drain that swamp. He created a whole new protion of the swamp. He was fine with Flynn lying to the FBI (He knew for three weeks), but it was not acceptable that Flynn lied to Pence? LOL. Give me a freakin break. You think it is acceptable for a potus to know someone in your cabinet committed a felony and do nothing about it? If you notice Trump used to tweet something out about the mueller investigation as soon as any new detail was out. He hasn't uttered a word about manafort sharing internal data with russia. In the past he would tweet-- see no collusion. I am sorry, you are okay with what I see as a criminal in the WH. I just am not. It has nothing to do with hatred. It has everything to do with integrity.  Innocent men don't lie. 

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On 1/9/2019 at 7:45 PM, maximus66 said:

You have got to be kidding. :doh2:

It's exhausting isn't it.  Tell me you're not exhausted.  We have been listening to this clap trap for years M66. 

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15 hours ago, Swamp_Yankee said:

Call me crazy but since the free market determines all things, wouldn't it make more sense (and cost much less) to cut off the supply of jobs for anyone who is not in this country legally?  Illegal immigration is almost entirely driven by the lure of employment.  When is the last time you saw a business owner heavily fined or sent to prison for employing illegal immigrants?  Every once in a while some high profile individual (politician/celebrity, etc...) gets their hand slapped for having an illegal immigrant as a nanny, but that's it.  When is the last time anyone saw the owner of a large construction company, farm, or meat packing plant fined out of business or imprisoned for employing illegal immigrants?  The fines and/or proceeds from assets of the businesses seized and auctioned could be dedicated to border security.  Between increased border enforcement and the lack of available work, illegal immigration would dry up quickly. 

The dedicated penalty model works well here in NJ with fire code.  If you violate fire code and are fined, a portion of that penalty goes into a trust account for your local fire department, the reasoning being that if a building or buildings in their jurisdiction is in violation of the code, it makes it more likely that they may have to one day save that building, and that they should get something in return to spend on training, equipment, etc...  Admittedly, this would not solve the border's drug problem, but I'm lost on that one.  Never touched the stuff nor had the desire...I don't really understand the "heroin epidemic" either.  I don't see how a bunch of degenerates doping themselves into oblivion is a problem for normal working people.

Just imagine cutting the supply of heroin in 1/2.  How many more productive people would be alive.  

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1 minute ago, stratocaster said:

Just imagine cutting the supply of heroin in 1/2.  How many more productive people would be alive.  

Not sure I follow?  Productive people don't do drugs in the first place, so how do you figure that would work?  Don't be fooled-the "good kid who made a mistake and got mixed up in drugs" doesn't exist.  Addicts are inherently bad and immoral people and would be bad and immoral with or without drugs.

Edited by Swamp_Yankee

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4 minutes ago, Swamp_Yankee said:

Not sure I follow?  Productive people don't do drugs in the first place, so how do you figure that would work?  Don't be fooled-the "good kid who got mixed up in drugs" doesn't exist.  

You would quite surprised just how many functional, productive people indulge in narcotics and alcohol. They exist in all professions and economic levels. Many good kids for numerous reasons and circumstances find themselves addicted to drugs. They too come from many economic levels and towns.

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5 minutes ago, YurytheRed said:

You would quite surprised just how many functional, productive people indulge in narcotics and alcohol. They exist in all professions and economic levels. Many good kids for numerous reasons and circumstances find themselves addicted to drugs. They too come from many economic levels and 

Addicts (of any kind) are degenerates.  What is your motivation to make excuses for them?

Edited by Swamp_Yankee

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3 hours ago, Swamp_Yankee said:

Not sure I follow?  Productive people don't do drugs in the first place, so how do you figure that would work?  Don't be fooled-the "good kid who made a mistake and got mixed up in drugs" doesn't exist.  Addicts are inherently bad and immoral people and would be bad and immoral with or without drugs.

Oh, I'm not fooled at all by the "good kid who made a mistake", the same way I'm not fooled by alcoholics, the point I was trying to make was in regard to the supply/demand argument you were making about the lure of employment driving illegal immigration.  I agree that people doping themselves into oblivion shouldn't be a problem for us normal working people and illegals should not be my problem either, but our wonderful politicians find ways to make us pay for them and their rehab and healthcare as they do with illegals.  

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On 1/9/2019 at 5:21 PM, maximus66 said:

The unfortunate thing is that free speech has turned into the ability to lie without being liable, accuse without factual content and the possibilty of ruining someones life by doing so without recourse. Dangerous proposition when you think about, look at what are latest supreme court judge went through. Liberals use this as a weapon now...sad

Exactly, they lie and repeat lies when they want to destroy someone like Kavanaugh and Gorsuch and Bork and anyone else who is not supporting the liberal agenda.  

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