Green Energy

[Haskell_Hunter]

8 minutes ago, JFC1 said:

 

Thanks Haskell, you put it better than I was trying to in responding to JH just now--It's hard to compare the centuries old petroleum industry and its infrastructure and byproducts to new lithium technology.  The results would be apples and oranges, snapshots in time as you put it. But what I did take into account in responding to JH (Most facts ARE political, BTW, JH) is simply the nature of lithium deposits and the transport of the substance--you don't mine lithium (so far) the way we pump petroleum and the tanker trade and pipeline industry seem much more destructive than lithium transportation, beginning simply with the difference between volumes needed and the place of lithium in a batter vs. gas sloshing in a car's tank to be replenished in 400 miles.

Speaking of political, outside of China the largest lithium and other rare earth deposits are located in...wait for it...Afghanistan.

The extraction of lithium is incredibly toxic, and China doesn't care that it is.  They want to extract it and sell it as fast as possible, and they are destroying their country as a result.  Over time those processes should mature and become cleaner, but they are very harsh right now.  Lithium does not occur as an element naturally and it's incredibly reactive.  So getting it out of it's compounded state requires some harsh chemicals and generates a lot of toxic waste.

[Lunatic]

41 minutes ago, JHbowhunter said:

I would love to see the real breakdown on how electric vehicles are better for environment (overall). 

Yes - they are not creating exhaust, but.....

1) The electricity is still coming primarily from fossil fuels.   But how much - comparatively???

2) Lithium mining and Lithium disposal are both definitely very very bad for environment. Is it really more "sustainable" in the long run compared to fossil fuel?

These are serious questions I have that I admit to not knowing the answer to 

 

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1130767404340998

 

[BCsaw]

I'm calling Shenanigans!
Haskell gets tossed around on every eco truck discussion/JHBOWHUNTER and sees an opening door to exit.
If you only waited til the vaccine went through adequate human trials..
Let's talk truck sales buddy.
Pass the popcorn around!

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

[JFC1]

1 minute ago, Haskell_Hunter said:

Speaking of political, outside of China the largest lithium and other rare earth deposits are located in...wait for it...Afghanistan.

The extraction of lithium is incredibly toxic, and China doesn't care that it is.  They want to extract it and sell it as fast as possible, and they are destroying their country as a result.  Over time those processes should mature and become cleaner, but they are very harsh right now.  Lithium does not occur as an element naturally and it's incredibly reactive.  So getting it out of it's compounded state requires some harsh chemicals and generates a lot of toxic waste.

Yes, lithium extraction is incredibly toxic. I've visited lithium mines in Bolivia. But it's untrue that China is "destroying its country" to extract lithium. As you point out, the spots on earth with lithium as a proven resource are few and far between and nowhere near as extensive (so far) as oil reserves. The parts of China with lithium are tiny in comparison with the map of China. But look no further than the Gulf of Mexico, NJ beaches, Coast of Alaska, or Houston suburbs for some idea of the toxicity and effects of transporting and refining petroleum. 

But as you say, this is a historical question and one that can't be resolved by comparing nascent lithium industry to big oil

[JFC1]

5 minutes ago, Lunatic said:

 

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1130767404340998

 

Ah, yes, scientist, recovering cokehead, and media gigolo Glen Beck weighs in on Facebook with real facts...If we believe Glen we should definitely believe Hunter B

[Haskell_Hunter]

4 minutes ago, JFC1 said:

Yes, lithium extraction is incredibly toxic. I've visited lithium mines in Bolivia. But it's untrue that China is "destroying its country" to extract lithium. As you point out, the spots on earth with lithium as a proven resource are few and far between and nowhere near as extensive (so far) as oil reserves. The parts of China with lithium are tiny in comparison with the map of China. But look no further than the Gulf of Mexico, NJ beaches, Coast of Alaska, or Houston suburbs for some idea of the toxicity and effects of transporting and refining petroleum. 

But as you say, this is a historical question and one that can't be resolved by comparing nascent lithium industry to big oil

Small areas, yes, but they are dead zones.  Some of the holding ponds they have may not be designed well enough, and there is no long-term plan to manage those ponds.  They are a crisis waiting to happen.  And I didn't want to imply the entire country was being destroyed, but that part of the country is being destroyed, and they have no long-term management plan for the waste they've generated.

[Lunatic]

1 hour ago, Haskell_Hunter said:

I've looked into it, and I am still interested in getting one.  Not sure when, but it does make sense.

It costs about $12 to charge the car to 100% and you get about 3o0 miles from that.  You might get more miles from newer models.  But that's pretty good.

You also don't have the cost of an internal combustion engine.  No oil changes.  No coolant changes.  None of that stuff comes into play.  You also get a trunk in the front and rear of the vehicle since there's no combustion engine.  So there's more storage and no engine maintenance costs.

The batteries are underneath the vehicle, which creates a low center of gravity.  Better handling and less chance of a roll-over if you get into an accident.

Depending on how this summer goes, I might consider getting one towards the end of this year to drive around town and such instead of driving my truck, which gets 10MPG in town and costs $80 to fill the tank.

The vehicle cost is higher, but the long-term maintenance costs are lower.

How long do these batteries last and how much is it to replace them. 
I am not a car guy. It’s just transportation to me so decision for me comes down to cost and reliability. 

[Lunatic]

47 minutes ago, Haskell_Hunter said:

I agree.  Also consider that we will be putting even more strain on our electric grid if we all start buying electric cars.  I took a look at adding solar to the roof of my house nearly covering the whole surface.  I found out that the government limits how much coverage you can do, and that limits the amount of electricity you can get from solar (government loses money when you go solar because they don't charge a utility tax for your generation).  We the coverage I could get it would power my house, but would barely be able to charge an electric car.  So there will always be a load on the existing infrastructure to charge something.

In states like California and Texas, their electric grids have issues.  California can't generate enough power for it's citizens, so they have rolling blackouts like Pakistan and India do.  Texas has other issues, but without a stable power grid, you ain't charging your cars.

Lithium recycling is in its infancy, but I think that whomever can figure out how to reclaim dead batteries will be the next billionaire with that tech.  Electric cars are inevitable, and it'll probably happen in some of our lifetimes.

California is heading for some serious issues with the policies already in place. As it stands their grid can not keep up without electric cars in the picture. They are already asking to charge cars only off peak hrs but yet they are set in 8 years to sell only electric cars in Cal. 

[Haskell_Hunter]

4 minutes ago, Lunatic said:

How long do these batteries last and how much is it to replace them. 
I am not a car guy. It’s just transportation to me so decision for me comes down to cost and reliability. 

Still too early to tell.  Six years, maybe.  I know with consumer electronics you get about 5 years out of most batteries.  After about three years, based on my experiences with consumer electronics, these batteries start losing the ability to hold a charge.  However, the industrial batteries in cars are designed differently and you probably get more life out of them.

[Lunatic]

51 minutes ago, Haskell_Hunter said:

It will only represent a snapshot in time.  Fossil fuels are mature in their technologies.  Electric are in their infancy.  It'll be a different story in 20 years when more cars are on the road.  There will be a tipping point.

That’s the big question. Is it too soon to dive in? 

[Haskell_Hunter]

2 minutes ago, Lunatic said:

That’s the big question. Is it too soon to dive in? 

It's always too soon and too late.  When you get today will be improved upon next year with something better.  The timing is up to you.  I am considering one now because we have three more years of Biden, and if I have to buy gas it ain't gonna' be cheap.  If I take a new contract within the next couple of years, which I might, having an electric car to do the daily bumper-to-bumper commute will save me a lot of money in gas.

[Lunatic]

9 minutes ago, Haskell_Hunter said:

Still too early to tell.  Six years, maybe.  I know with consumer electronics you get about 5 years out of most batteries.  After about three years, based on my experiences with consumer electronics, these batteries start losing the ability to hold a charge.  However, the industrial batteries in cars are designed differently and you probably get more life out of them.

This may hold the key to affordability. If your electric car is $0.04/mile cheaper in energy cost and you drive 35,000 miles per year your savings are $7,000 in 5 years. What if the batteries cost you $10K in 5 years to replace?  This is a big piece of the puzzle 

[Haskell_Hunter]

8 minutes ago, Lunatic said:

This may hold the key to affordability. If your electric car is $0.04/mile cheaper in energy cost and you drive 35,000 miles per year your savings are $7,000 in 5 years. What if the batteries cost you $10K in 5 years to replace?  This is a big piece of the puzzle 

If I pay off an electric car in 5 years, $10K in one year just means I have an extra year of car payments and four more years of no car payment and no gas payments.

TCO or Total Cost of Ownership takes into account all costs.  If the price of gas triples in five years, you're saving even more by buying a $10K battery.  Both costs are unknown, but I have a feeling that the cost of gas will continue to go up and the cost of electric car batteries will go down.

[Lunatic]

4 minutes ago, Haskell_Hunter said:

If I pay off an electric car in 5 years, $10K in one year just means I have an extra year of car payments and four more years of no car payment and no gas payments.

TCO or Total Cost of Ownership takes into account all costs.  If the price of gas triples in five years, you're saving even more by buying a $10K battery.  Both costs are unknown, but I have a feeling that the cost of gas will continue to go up and the cost of electric car batteries will go down.

Good points however, why do I have a feeling the incredible increase in demand on the outdated and falling apart grid will see electric energy prices go up and not down 

btw the no car payment after 5 years Is not a factor if in comparing electric vs gas. You pay off your gas car as well, and maybe even faster since it costs less. That part at best has no winners 

[dlist777]

Just a couple of general points:

1.  It is true that the electric car is being charged on the grid and the grid uses about 65% fossil fuels right now.  But, of course a normal car uses 100% fossil fuels.  And, a big component of the 65% of the grid is natural gas which releases much less carbon that burning fuel.  

2.  An electric motor is WAY more efficient than an internal combustion engine....ignoring the source of the energy.  An electric motor uses current and magnets to spin.  So, it starts with circular motion.  An internal combustion engine uses combustion to make pistons move up and down and then must convert that energy into circular motion / twisting force.  A lot of efficiency is lost in the process.  This is one of the reasons you see these crazy fast 0-60 times on electric vehicles.  So, even when it's using some brown energy from the grid, it's using less than a standard vehicle.  

3.  The grid will become more green over time.  Coal is going down each year so the electric vehicle will get "more green" over time where the standard vehicle will remain 100% brown.

4.  An electric motor is very simple.  An internal combustion engine is complex.  Repairs and maintenance are more frequent and more costly with standard vehicles.  

Where is the cost today?  EV's cost more initially and then you save money over time.  Where's the pay back period?  I don't know.  It's constantly changing.  But the numbers are moving in favor of electric over time.  Batteries are getting better and cheaper.  Charging options are improving.  The market and technology is moving us that way.  It's a good thing.  I might not quite be obvious in the costs yet, but it's very close and getting better.  Plus it is better for the environment.  

Edited July 9, 2021 by dlist777