Simple explanation Needed- predator hunting

[Hawkeye57]

Never had an interst in predator hunting. Done it on deer hunts to kill time out west with a rifle but no interst in NJ with all the laws. 

Well.....Was shed hunting yesterday in my main spot and found 2 doe and one fawn dead. Looks to be coyote problem. 

 

If IM reading this right, I can use a .22 rifle as long as i have the $2 permit? Need to have a call on me too? thats it?

If i dont have permit, I can use #4 fine shot only?

with everything in NJ, it seems convoluted on purpose!  

[230jhp]

I believe you also need the rifle permit. That involves going to a hunter education for rifle. 

[Bones]

You need a rifle permit plus the coyote fox permit, you can use a rifle during day up to a .25 caliber and can only use shotgun during night.

if your not using a rifle you still need the $2 permit 

[mazzgolf]

I thought it was confusing at first, too, but the chart on page 54 in the digest says pretty much what you need to know. Just look at the column for the date/time you want to hunt, and match with the row of the weapon you want to use.

The important thing to know (and once you understand this, it should make the chart all make sense) is: you can hunt under one of two separate set of rules, and it is your choice - you can either hunt under general small game hunting (that's the middle column) or you can hunt under the special permit rules if you buy the $2 permit. (side note: I'm ignoring the bow-only season which is the first column):

 

 

[mazzgolf]

1 hour ago, 230jhp said:

I believe you also need the rifle permit.

This is a good point - you need that stupid rifle permit to hunt predators using a rifle under the special permit season. But pretty much any non-airgun rifle hunting in NJ requires the rifle permit so that goes without saying (i.e. that's why you don't see it mentioned in the page 54 chart).

[Hawkeye57]

I guess because I never cared to hunt predator I didnt realize- 

So if im reading this correctly: I CAN use my AR .223 as long as the round is under 80 grains and hollow point.

pretty cool. surprised cant use it to hunt other game.

[mazzgolf]

Yup - I use my bolt action .223, but I know people hunt with their AR-15.

Remember, just like shotgun hunting during normal seasons - rifle hunting in NJ only allows 3 rounds loaded (you can have a 10 round mag, doesn't need to be pinned, just don't have 3 rounds total loaded in the chamber/mag).

[Bigsquirrel]

The law reads no more than 3 rounds in the magazine, so it is possible 1 in the chamber and 3 in the clip.  As far as rifle permit goes, if you have a resident license from another state (my case it was Maine) that was for rifle hunting, you can use that to obtain the rifle permit. 

[mazzgolf]

34 minutes ago, Bigsquirrel said:

The law reads no more than 3 rounds in the magazine

Hmm.. I never noticed that. My guess - it's a mistake in the digest. I don't know where this is in the actual statutes or admin code, but I bet they meant to say in the digest its 3 in the gun total (just like for shotguns). I'd be surprised if the actual law really allowed 4. I'm still only going out with 3  

UPDATE: I found it, and, yes, the digest is wrong. The actual law (in the NJ Admin Code) says the following:
 

Quote

 

N.J.A.C. 7:25-5.23

§ 7:25-5.23 Firearms and missiles, etc.

(c)  Except as may be permitted for waterfowl hunting in accordance with Federal regulations and as provided for agents and/or permittees operating under an approved Special Deer Management Permit (N.J.A.C. 7:25-5.32), no person shall use in hunting fowl or animals of any kind, any shotgun capable of holding more than three shells at one time or that may be fired more than three times without reloading. Except as provided for agents and/or permittees operating under an approved Special Deer Management Permit (N.J.A.C. 7:25-5.32), no person shall use in hunting or trapping of any kind, a rifle loaded with more than three cartridges. No person shall have in his or her possession while deer hunting on Monmouth Battlefield State Park any shell or cartridge with missiles of any kind other than shotgun slugs or No. 4 or No. 000 buckshot.

 

Notice "no person shall use . . . a rifle loaded with more than three cartridges." - there is nothing here about three-in-a-magazine. Just can't be loaded with three. I think the author of the digest just summarized this regulation incorrectly.

Edited February 11, 2020 by mazzgolf
reference to the actual regulation

[mazzgolf]

I reported to DFW this discrepancy between what the Digest says and what the admin code says. Just got an email back this morning - the Digest editor said "good catch". They will fix next year's Digest to make it more clear that the law is 3 rounds total loaded in the gun.

[Hawkeye57]

1 minute ago, mazzgolf said:

I reported to DFW this discrepancy between what the Digest says and what the admin code says. Just got an email back this morning - the Digest editor said "good catch". They will fix next year's Digest to make it more clear that the law is 3 rounds total loaded in the gun.

It is scary how many errors are in the digest that can easily screw a hunter even trying to do the right thing. 
 

ive emailed them on multiple occasions about interpretations and clarification and they always say it will get fixed. 
 

We are taught to follow the digest but in reality it has no legal status. 
 

 

[Bucndoe]

48 minutes ago, Hawkeye57 said:

It is scary how many errors are in the digest that can easily screw a hunter even trying to do the right thing. 
 

ive emailed them on multiple occasions about interpretations and clarification and they always say it will get fixed. 
 

We are taught to follow the digest but in reality it has no legal status. 
 

 

No, you are taught to follow the laws and the disclaimer is that the digest is not the full law. It is only a guide

[BowhunterNJ]

24 minutes ago, Bucndoe said:

No, you are taught to follow the laws and the disclaimer is that the digest is not the full law. It is only a guide

While I agree the law differs from a guide, what's the purpose of the guide if we can't trust what's said in it?  Might as well publish a one page guide with "Please read the laws".  Such a disclaimer is a disservice to hunters and fishermen, we should be able to trust the guide as aligning with the law and also be able to lean on the guide in the event of a discrepancy.  Maybe that's how it works right now, but if there are some outdoorsmen/women getting charged because they follow the digest and the law differs, IMO that is a big problem.

[nickmarch]

52 minutes ago, BowhunterNJ said:

While I agree the law differs from a guide, what's the purpose of the guide if we can't trust what's said in it?  Might as well publish a one page guide with "Please read the laws".  Such a disclaimer is a disservice to hunters and fishermen, we should be able to trust the guide as aligning with the law and also be able to lean on the guide in the event of a discrepancy.  Maybe that's how it works right now, but if there are some outdoorsmen/women getting charged because they follow the digest and the law differs, IMO that is a big problem.

There are so many examples of this same situation.  Must be to generate fine revenue for the State. 

I dont want to take over this thread.  You all can go find it and look for yourself or start another thread and I will try to explain.  If you look at the published aka filed regs for coyote hunting they cite two statutes that they claim were used to make the regulations.  Neither statute has anything to do with coyote hunting.  Keep in mind that regulations MUST be an interpretation of a law and that they must cite the law in the regulations. 

N.J.A.C. 7:25-5.19 k)  Authority: The authority for the adoption of the foregoing section is found in N.J.S.A. 23:4-42 and 23:4-58.1

https://advance.lexis.com/documentpage/?pdmfid=1000516&crid=4f59bafa-4aa2-4b9a-8354-f5aebbcf16ff&nodeid=AAKACQAAGAAU&nodepath=%2FROOT%2FAAK%2FAAKACQ%2FAAKACQAAG%2FAAKACQAAGAAU&level=4&haschildren=&populated=false&title=§+7%3A25-5.19+Red+fox+(Vulpes+vulpes)%2C+gray+fox+(Urocyon+cinereoargenteus)%2C+and+coyote+(Canis+latrans)+hunting&config=00JAA1YTg5OGJlYi04MTI4LTRlNjQtYTc4Yi03NTQxN2E5NmE0ZjQKAFBvZENhdGFsb2ftaXPxZTR7bRPtX1Jok9kz&pddocfullpath=%2Fshared%2Fdocument%2Fadministrative-codes%2Furn%3AcontentItem%3A5XKV-PWB1-JJK6-S444-00008-00&ecomp=h3t7kkk&prid=fd63c88f-fc7b-4ccd-9ca1-385c4a472585

23:4-58.1 - Hunting foxes with hounds and firearms; penalty

https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2018/title-23/chapter-4/section-23-4-58.1/

Section 23:4-42 - Killing deer, season, permit to kill on cultivated land.

https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2018/title-23/chapter-4/section-23-4-42/

It really wouldnt surprise me if there is nothing in the law that even allows coyote hunting.

Edited February 11, 2020 by nickmarch

[Hawkeye57]

22 hours ago, Bucndoe said:

No, you are taught to follow the laws and the disclaimer is that the digest is not the full law. It is only a guide

actually: “The content within will help keep you safe, legal and responsible while you are in the field this season. Whether you access the regulations online or from a hard copy of the Digest, it is your responsibility to be informed”

 

pulled from the digest. You ARE taught to follow the digest. 
 

unless of course you can find in any training guide or any place where the DEP states: you must research thousands of state regulations, with zero guidance, to ensure you are in compliance with the laws...

 

it’s insane to think that the guide to follow is not 100%  same guide we ARE taught to follow  

 

what’s the point of the guide? 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Hawkeye57