Great video of doe ducking crossbow bolt! (time for a new debate)

[JHbowhunter]

6 minutes ago, hammer4reel said:

If deer were only reacting to the sound of the bow .how come all the deer don't react the same way as the one the arrow is flying towards .

When you pick one from the group it's that's deer that reacts the most. 

Spend some time watching slow motion videos. Where a few deer are standing together

Your thinking may change

great perspective- that's the kind of out of the box thinking needed in this debate.    Still waiting on @Haskell_Hunter to provide the mathematical equation that might explain this. 

[Pathman]

2 minutes ago, hammer4reel said:

If deer were only reacting to the sound of the bow .how come all the deer don't react the same way as the one the arrow is flying towards .

When you pick one from the group it's that's deer that reacts the most. 

Spend some time watching slow motion videos. Where a few deer are standing together

Your thinking may change

Just when i thought we were done!😩😂

so Hammer, now you’re contending that a group of deer can discern which one of them is being shot at by the sound of the arrow? Yikes, i agree even less with that then your original contention. 
 

the majority of time I shoot at a deer within a group, they all run, if they all run, then they ALL “ducked,” not just the one that was shot. 
That’s been my experience anyway, I’d have to see video of a group of deer and only the one actually shot at reacting. 
If there is only one deer reacting more than the others, i think that’s a result of the arrow actually hitting that particular deer at that point, and not the sound of the arrow coming.  
 

I know Rusty, too many words again!😉

 

[hammer4reel]

1 minute ago, Pathman said:

Just when i thought we were done!😩😂

so Hammer, now you’re contending that a group of deer can discern which one of them is being shot at by the sound of the arrow? Yikes, i agree even less with that then your original contention. 
 

the majority of time I shoot at a deer within a group, they all run, if they all run, then they ALL “ducked,” not just the one that was shot. 
That’s been my experience anyway, I’d have to see video of a group of deer and only the one actually shot at reacting. 
If there is only one deer reacting more than the others, i think that’s a result of the arrow actually hitting that particular deer at that point, and not the sound of the arrow coming.  
 

I know Rusty, too many words again!😉

 

I didn’t say they don’t all run or react. I said watch slow motion video and you will see the largest reaction is the deer the arrow is going towards.

many times the deer reacting later in the video will be to the shot deers reaction to flee.

so IF  was bow noise only they should all be reacting in a simaler time frame.

 

 

[JHbowhunter]

3 minutes ago, Pathman said:

Just when i thought we were done!😩😂

so Hammer, now you’re contending that a group of deer can discern which one of them is being shot at by the sound of the arrow? Yikes, i agree even less with that then your original contention. 
 

the majority of time I shoot at a deer within a group, they all run, if they all run, then they ALL “ducked,” not just the one that was shot. 
That’s been my experience anyway, I’d have to see video of a group of deer and only the one actually shot at reacting. 
If there is only one deer reacting more than the others, i think that’s a result of the arrow actually hitting that particular deer at that point, and not the sound of the arrow coming.  
 

I know Rusty, too many words again!😉

 

I think he is saying the deer that is about to get hit by arrow reacts differently than the others, he didn't say the others had no reaction.   Would be great to see some actual video footage of this.    a group of mature doe, in a roe, a shot is fired from a bow/xbow- and see the group reaction

[hammer4reel]

1 minute ago, JHbowhunter said:

I think he is saying the deer that is about to get hit by arrow reacts differently than the others, he didn't say the others had no reaction.   Would be great to see some actual video footage of this.    a group of mature doe, in a roe, a shot is fired from a bow/xbow- and see the group reaction

Field archer has a ton of video showing it.’easy search since he is on your favorites list lol

[Reeltight]

Crossbows are very loud and 48 yards is far. My opinion is she ducked because of the sound of the xbow and she had enough time to react being 48 yards away.  

[bucky]

30 minutes ago, Live to Hunt said:

 so what’s the conclusion 

If you don't believe a deer can duck an arrow from whatever the noise is coming from you should take up bowling...wtf I'm going to lunch now and going to try pissing into a fan, standby for the results

Edited October 4, 2019 by bucky

[Woodsman416]

I'm amazed that I've ever been able to actually shoot a deer with an arrow.

[MGHunter66]

1 hour ago, JHbowhunter said:

 I was just trying to reduce it to pure science/math. 

Didn’t you have a problem with both in highschool

[hammer4reel]

1 minute ago, MGHunter66 said:

Didn’t you have a problem with both in highschool

Yep, he ate the books

[MGHunter66]

Just now, hammer4reel said:

Yep, he ate the books

And crayons 

[Pathman]

29 minutes ago, hammer4reel said:

didn’t say they don’t all run or react. I said watch slow motion video and you will see the largest reaction is the deer the arrow is going towards.

 

I understand, and my contention is that the difference your describing is the impact of the arrow hitting the deer causing a different reaction, not the fact that the arrow was heading toward that particular deer. 

[not on the rug]

16 minutes ago, hammer4reel said:

Yep, he ate the books

 

15 minutes ago, MGHunter66 said:

And crayons 

And the paste...

[Lunatic]

3 hours ago, JHbowhunter said:

there might be a way the projectile noise could surpass the original shot noise because the projectile is traveling TOWARD the target whereas the original noise is stationary.     This is exactly the type of formula (train left the station at 5pm, traveling 150MPH....)  that was my demise in advanced math. 

 

 

So i did little research on your hypothesis. It looks like the sound does not "pick up" the speed of the source.
The speed of sound is the speed of sound and it does not increase if emitted form a moving object. From what I read the only thing that will change is the frequency and this is called the Doppler effect.

For us, relative to our discussion, the sound the arrow emits will not get to its target before the initial sound made by the bow.

[Haskell_Hunter]

1 hour ago, JHbowhunter said:

great perspective- that's the kind of out of the box thinking needed in this debate.    Still waiting on @Haskell_Hunter to provide the mathematical equation that might explain this. 

There's actually no math required.  You have to first look at evolutionary biology first.

The deer reacts to a "sound" by ducking low and then springing forward into a run.  When predators approach their prey, it is usually from behind and they jump on top of their prey, towards the neck.  The drop that a deer does is a reaction to the predator to elude this kind of attack.  Deer that aren't good at this usually get eaten, hence the evolutionary aspect of it.

We all know that in some instances we can make a deer stop, raise its head and look toward us if we make a fake doe bleat with our own mouths.  That is another kind of reaction to sound.  So not all sounds make deer flee, some make them stop and wonder WTF?.

I do not think deer are evolved to the point where arrow flight or the higher pitch from arrow flight makes them go into flight and evade mode.  However, lower frequency or higher decibel sounds can startle deer into flight mode.  A predator in the process of pouncing on their prey would have a lower frequency sound and a higher decibel level, so I would expect the deer to react into flight mode in this kind of situation.

Crossbows are considerably louder than compound bows, and there are a lot of technologies in a modern compound bow that helps absorb some of the sound it's going to produce.  Crossbows claim to have sound dampening technology, but most of them sound like you're hitting a board with a hammer.  The tradeoff with using a crossbow is sound for speed.  You have a higher decibel sound produced as a result of the additional energy to move the bolt faster.  A compound bow uses less energy to move the arrow more slowly, but due to there being less energy, there is less sound to dampen from the bow.  That's the tradeoff.

So, IMHO, the reaction is definitely due to the sound of the bow, not necessarily from the arrow.  The arrow may contribute to it, but the first and loudest sound that the deer will experience is from the bow.  As the arrow starts accelerating, the wind will eventually create a whistling sound, but not before the deer hears the sound of the bow first.  The bow sound is the initial trigger for the instinctive drop, lean, and run flight reaction.

Now, @JHbowhunter, if you need me to mathematically prove that the sound of the bow will reach the deer first, I can do that.  I can also demonstrate that the arrow will need to accelerate a few feet prior to having enough wind velocity to create a compressed sound wave loud enough for the deer to hear.  And, kids, don't forget that we also need to take into consideration the Doppler effect in these calculations (Google it if you don't know what it is).