Great video of doe ducking crossbow bolt! (time for a new debate)

[Pathman]

24 minutes ago, MGHunter66 said:

WTF  I see this thread is going off the reservation fast 

Oh yeah, in regards to this statement, JH should change his job description from “moderator” to head shit stirrer!😁

[not on the rug]

4 minutes ago, Pathman said:

I say bullshit to your bullshit!😂

The reaction is 100% to the sound of the bow/crossbow going off. Next thing you’ll be telling me is they only “Duck” Lightfield slugs cause they are slower then Accutips and they can hear them coming, give me a break!

if the deer in question doesn’t react to the shot and sound of the bow, it’s not going to react to the “sound” of an arrow. 
 

let’s look at this from another perspective givin this is a “debate” as JH suggested. 
Can you explain why some deer react to the sound of the bow and some don’t? They all make some level of noise correct? But yet, some deer don’t react at all (deer that aren’t on alert already of course ) and some run out of their hooves trying to get away from the sound. I believe that’s a factor of distance, noise level, deer’s focus etc.  

Now, if a deer could hear an arrow, and could discern that it was danger coming at them, and it was the arrow “noise” they were reacting to, wouldn’t every deer “duck“ because the arrow is approaching them, rather than a sound coming from a fixed position at varying distances?

So, what’s the basis of your theory that deer van hear the arrow coming other than the fact that arrows make “noise?” 
 

I swear, some of you guys should work on the impeachment committee, you can “create” evidence with the best of them!😜

 

Ok.  So let's not talk about reaction at all.  Just hearing. Do you believe the deer can hear the arrow in the air?  I know that I can hear it.  So if I can hear it, I think it's pretty safe to say that the deer can.  Some broadheads in particular, are really loud and whistle like crazy in the air.  Again, if I can hear them, I think the deer can too.  Deer have better hearing than humans, right?

[JHbowhunter]

5 minutes ago, Pathman said:

I say bullshit to your bullshit!😂

I swear, some of you guys should work on the impeachment committee, you can “create” evidence with the best of them!😜

 

Now boys - this is not civil debate.     I believe my mathematical proposition will prove it without question.  

150 feet from crossbow, to deer.

1125 FPS speed of sound

400 FPS bow (Lunatic's bow, actually in this example 350FPS was proclaimed so even slower). 

Projectile traveling that 350 or 400 FPS, emitting some form of noise. (BH or vanes).  

Can the traveling projectile also emitting noise - have it's noise catch up and SURPASS the original sound from the bow shot, within 150 feet (or even at all - at any distance) ????

MATH MATH MATH - and there will be no BS to debate

[JHbowhunter]

4 minutes ago, Pathman said:

Oh yeah, in regards to this statement, JH should change his job description from “moderator” to head shit stirrer!😁

I am doing this in the name of SCIENCE

[Pathman]

Ha! Ok JH, I’ll go with that. But in your calculations (i don’t however believe math will solve this one) don’t forget to include reaction time of deer. The speed of sound and all that calculating is fine, but there is a processing time for the deer to react that would have to be calculated as well, not sure if that’s possible. 
 

ok, I never said arrows don’t make noise, what I’m saying is it’s irrelevant compared to the sound of the bow for one thing, and second, you’re giving deer the supernatural capability of hearing an arrow coming through the air at incredible speed (relatively speaking) and then being able to process  that “sound,” react in a manner that will move them away from the danger of the arrow, All in the time in takes an arrow to span the distance from the bow to the deer. Is that what you’re trying to tell me? Well, I say total BS on that. The deer are simply reacting to a sound alien to their typical environment. Some are more wary and on edge and will be jumpy as hell and react no matter what to any sound, some will stand there and not even flinch as the arrow goes through them. 
So unless i see some positive proof that deer can hear, process and react To an arrow coming at them in the span of milliseconds, I’m not buying it. 

[Pathman]

19 minutes ago, not on the rug said:

Ok.  So let's not talk about reaction at all.  Just hearing. Do you believe the deer can hear the arrow in the air?  I know that I can hear it.  So if I can hear it, I think it's pretty safe to say that the deer can.  Some broadheads in particular, are really loud and whistle like crazy in the air.  Again, if I can hear them, I think the deer can too.  Deer have better hearing than humans, right?

In regards to your analogy Rug, I’ll use this one word example as comparison. 

Thermacell!

How many of you have stated that deer can’t smell, or that they don’t react, to the smell of a Thermacell?

I’d say 99% of you. So, using your logic, I can smell my Thermacell, so that must mean every deer can smell it to right? 
 

I rest my case!😉

[Lunatic]

20 minutes ago, JHbowhunter said:

Now boys - this is not civil debate.     I believe my mathematical proposition will prove it without question.  

150 feet from crossbow, to deer.

1125 FPS speed of sound

400 FPS bow (Lunatic's bow, actually in this example 350FPS was proclaimed so even slower). 

Projectile traveling that 350 or 400 FPS, emitting some form of noise. (BH or vanes).  

Can the traveling projectile also emitting noise - have it's noise catch up and SURPASS the original sound from the bow shot, within 150 feet (or even at all - at any distance) ????

MATH MATH MATH - and there will be no BS to debate

The sound of the shot will get there ino.133

the arrow at 40 yards already took 0.3 secs

no way the arrow and then The noise it creates can beat the 0.133

[not on the rug]

2 minutes ago, Pathman said:

Ha! Ok JH, I’ll go with that. But in your calculations (i don’t however believe math will solve this one) don’t forget to include reaction time of deer. The speed of sound and all that calculating is fine, but there is a processing time for the deer to react that would have to be calculated as well, not sure if that’s possible. 
 

ok, I never said arrows don’t make noise, what I’m saying is it’s irrelevant compared to the sound of the bow for one thing, and second, you’re giving deer the supernatural capability of hearing an arrow coming through the air at incredible speed (relatively speaking) and then being able to process  that “sound,” react in a manner that will move them away from the danger of the arrow, All in the time in takes an arrow to span the distance from the bow to the deer. Is that what you’re trying to tell me? Well, I say total BS on that. The deer are simply reacting to a sound alien to their typical environment. Some are more wary and on edge and will be jumpy as hell and react no matter what to any sound, some will stand there and not even flinch as the arrow goes through them. 
So unless i see some positive proof that deer can hear, process and react To an arrow coming at them in the span of milliseconds, I’m not buying it. 

I know that I'm not saying that. I believe the deer are reacting to the sound of the bow or xbow.   That doesn't mean they can't hear the arrow noise.  Again, if I can hear it, they can hear it.   

I think Hammer is saying they may be able to react to the arrow noise based on the way they've rolled away from it in video. i can't really speak to that point.  

[JHbowhunter]

1 minute ago, Pathman said:

 But in your calculations (i don’t however believe math will solve this one) don’t forget to include reaction time of deer. The speed of sound and all that calculating is fine, but there is a processing time for the deer to react that would have to be calculated as well, not sure if that’s possible. 

"reaction time of deer".    Well what is the deer reacting to?   NOISE.

Same as a mosquito buzzing by your ear.   Our reaction time to that is our hands move toward the buzzing as soon as humanly possible.   

Whatever noise hits that deer first, is responsible for the "ducking" reaction.  Math can solve that - it would be irrefutable.  Again I pose the question, had The Field Archer aimed bolt away from deer, would the exact same reaction occurred? (which is the deer just dropping "the string" and not "the bolt") ?

When we see footage like this, it looks as if the deer is really ducking the projectile but if they can't hear that projectile before the "string" because it is mathematically impossible, then it's just a normal reaction to the bow noise and not projectile.  

[Rusty]

Deer do not duck arrows.  They react to sounds that startle them by running away.  They can't run from a straight legged position so the first thing they need to do is drop down to bend their legs so that they can push off.    

[not on the rug]

Just now, Pathman said:

In regards to your analogy Rug, I’ll use this one word example as comparison. 

Thermacell!

How many of you have stated that deer can’t smell, or that they don’t react, to the smell of a Thermacell?

I’d say 99% of you. So, using your logic, I can smell my Thermacell, so that must mean every deer can smell it to right? 
 

I rest my case!😉

Well, your case is flawed. 

Yes.  If I can smell it, the deer can smell it. 

Do they react to it?  Not usually.  

Deer have better sense of smell and hearing than humans.  They can hear arrows and smell Thermacell.  99/9% of them just dont or can't react to those things.  

[hammer4reel]

30 minutes ago, Pathman said:

I say bullshit to your bullshit!😂

The reaction is 100% to the sound of the bow/crossbow going off. Next thing you’ll be telling me is they only “Duck” Lightfield slugs cause they are slower then Accutips and they can hear them coming, give me a break!

if the deer in question doesn’t react to the shot and sound of the bow, it’s not going to react to the “sound” of an arrow. 
 

let’s look at this from another perspective givin this is a “debate” as JH suggested. 
Can you explain why some deer react to the sound of the bow and some don’t? They all make some level of noise correct? But yet, some deer don’t react at all (deer that aren’t on alert already of course ) and some run out of their hooves trying to get away from the sound. I believe that’s a factor of distance, noise level, deer’s focus etc.  

Now, if a deer could hear an arrow, and could discern that it was danger coming at them, and it was the arrow “noise” they were reacting to, wouldn’t every deer “duck“ because the arrow is approaching them, rather than a sound coming from a fixed position at varying distances?

So, what’s the basis of your theory that deer van hear the arrow coming other than the fact that arrows make “noise?” 
 

I swear, some of you guys should work on the impeachment committee, you can “create” evidence with the best of them!😜

 

Not all arrows make as much noise as some.

no different than when we react to an approaching bug.

ones that buzz we react faster than we can blink. Ones that come in silent we don’t.

deer reaction time is unreal . And as deer mature it gets even faster.

the quieter your arrow / broadhead combo is IMO  , deer react to them less.

many times guys think they made a bad shot. Slow motion video shows their arrow going right where they thought it did, that the shot was true, but the deer moved.

when Norway dura vanes came out to compete against blazers many of us tried them .

every deer we shot was moving some , same bows and set up changing back to quieter vanes , reaction to the shots was significantly less.

trad guys tried many different style cuts for years to quit down flight noise, this isn’t something new 

[JHbowhunter]

1 minute ago, Lunatic said:

The sound of the shot will get there ino.133

the arrow at 40 yards already took 0.3 secs

no way the arrow and then The noise it creates can beat the 0.133

there might be a way the projectile noise could surpass the original shot noise because the projectile is traveling TOWARD the target whereas the original noise is stationary.     This is exactly the type of formula (train left the station at 5pm, traveling 150MPH....)  that was my demise in advanced math. 

I think in 150 feet, the initial noise would beat projectile at any point the projectile is from target, but I do wonder there is a distance where the projectile noise surpasses the initial sound?

When I shoot 3 blade fixed heads that definitely "Whistle"  I can hear my bow release I can hear the hiss and then  the last thing I hear at 20 yards is the arrow smacking the target.   In that order...  

But what would I hear first if my ears were next to target?

 

[Jaysteph]

1 hour ago, JHbowhunter said:

1, 125.33 feet per second is speed of sound.  That is 375 yards per second, but of course- speed diminishes over distance so it's not absolute.  

But lets say 50 yards (150 feet) , no real loss of bolt speed at 400 FPS.       

If my calculation is currect, sound would hit 150 feet (50 yards)  in .13333 seconds.

The bolt gets there in .375 seconds...

I think I answered my question.  It's the noise of the bow, that causes the deer's reaction...

EXCEPT - one other factor..

You also have a projectile traveling 400 FPS that is also emitting some noise that is traveling 1,125 FPS. 

I don't have that formula, but at 150 feet, and would that bolt push the noise ahead of the original sound of the shot????    We need a mathematician because I do suck at math. 

(If a train left Chicago at 5pm....   that sorta math)

My mind is in a pretzel.

[JHbowhunter]

9 minutes ago, Rusty said:

Deer do not duck arrows.  They react to sounds that startle them by running away.  They can't run from a straight legged position so the first thing they need to do is drop down to bend their legs so that they can push off.    

There you have it folks from a biologist...  (WHO AVOIDED MY MATH EQUATION QUESTION)  LOL

I do believe he is factually correct as to why deer drop as part of their "flee" mechanics. So in essence the action "appears" as if ducking something, but it's simply a reaction to noise or vision. (limit this debate to the audio component though).