POLL Adult Deer Contest Rules and Scoring Discussion

[BowhunterNJ]

After mod review of the previous contests and the respective imbalance in scoring, we're discussing new scoring options.  We've chosen to use the Interactive P&Y Non-Typical Ccoring Form which will automatically do the math for you as you enter measurements.  Once all the information is entered, we will use the FINAL SCORE + Deductions from the form so full credit including deductions is given to the contest entry score.  Using the P&Y Non-Typical Scoring Form allows us to also include irregular points, whereas the P&Y Typical Scoring Form does not, so that is why we have selected this specific form.

Ultimately the goal is to keep the contest fun while also "getting it right" in terms of balanced scoring.  We also feel this is a great opportunity to learn about P&Y scoring for all the members (and mods), and could be useful in helping better gauge bucks on the hoof while hunting!  So while we know it's more measurements to take, let's look at it the positive side to it in that we get to learn and also get to better balance the contest entries for overall fairness! 

With that said, let's review the Current Scoring Method, as well as the New Scoring Method.  This topic only covers scoring, other aspects of the contest such as number of entries, dates, etc will likely remain the same (otherwise they will be updated in the official Rules & Signup topic).

If anyone has any input or recommendations on a balanced scoring method that differs from the the new method, please feel free to chime in with a reply!

Current Scoring Method:

Scoring:

• Doe Entries:
  • 10 points each
  • Plus Picture Credit (see below)

• Buck Entries:
  • 10 points
  • Plus the number of points they have (see below for Buck Point Credit Scoring)
  • Plus their inside spread credit (see below for Buck Spread Credit Scoring).
  • Plus Picture Credit (see below)

Scoring Credit System:

• Picture Scoring Credit:
  • Picture of deer only: 2 point
  • Picture of you with the deer: 4 points
  • Picture of you with the deer and weapon used: 6 points
• Buck Point Credit Scoring:
  • Measurement requirements:
    • Minimum point length is 1" measured from the base of the tine, where the main beam would cross through.
    • Rounding up measurement is not permitted in 1" requirement.
  • Closeup photos of points not clearly visible or of questionable length must be provided if needed/requested by NJ Woods & Water admin/moderators.
• Measurement guideline picture:

• Buck Inside Spread Credit Scoring:
  • Group A:
  • Measuring: 0-9"
  • Points Awarded: 3 points
• Group B:
  • Measuring: 10-16"
  • Points Awarded: 6 points
• Group C:
  • Measuring: 17"+
  • Points Awarded: 9 points
• Measurement requirements:
  • Minimum point length is 1" measured from the base of the tine, where the main beam would cross through.
  • Rounding up measurement is not permitted in 1" requirement.
• Closeup photos of points not clearly visible or of questionable length must be provided if needed/requested by NJ Woods & Water admin/moderators.
• Closeup photos of the inside spread measurement are required.
  • All spread measurements round to the nearest inch.
  • Example: Spread measurement is 16.5"....rounds up to 17". 16.4" rounds down to 16".

[*]Measurement guideline picture:

 

CONS to this Scoring Method:

• Spread credit is creating an imbalance whereas any buck 16.5" or wider gets max spread credit.   A 24" wide 8 pointer gross scoring 150" will lose to a 16.5" 9 or 10 pointer gross scoring 115"     

 

New Scoring Method:

Scoring Rules:

• Buck scoring will now follow the P&Y Non-Typical measuring instructions but will comprise of the P&Y Non-Typical FINAL SCORE + Deductions (i.e. full credit, no penalty for deductions)
• Hunters should use a flexible cable/string to measure widths, lengths, and circumferences during scoring. 
• Hunters are required to include pictures of any close measurements (within 1/2", i.e. a 1-1/2" tine or kicker for example) with their entries. 
• Mods or members may request additional pictures for clarifications of entries in the interest of fairness. 
• In the event of questionable scores, mods will consult with an official scorer and may require an in-person scoring to verify.

Scoring:

• Doe Entries:
  • 10 points each
  • Plus Picture Credit
• Buck Entries:
  • P&Y Non-Typical FINAL SCORE + Deductions (see below for form and instructions)
  • Plus Picture Credit

Scoring Form:

Interactive P&Y Non-Typical Whitetail Deer Scoring

Scoring Form Instructions:

• Complete the form in it's entirety, i.e. all regular and irregular points, widths, lengths, and circumferences.  The form will do all the math automatically for you.
• An entry's total score will be calculated from the form fields:  FINAL SCORE + DEDUCTIONS (Subtract:  Column 3 value)
• Save and attach the PDF (or screenshots) to your entry submission.  All measurements must be clearly visible on the form.
   

Picture Scoring Credit:

• Picture of deer only: 2 point
• Picture of you with the deer: 4 points
• Picture of you with the deer and weapon used: 6 points
  
   

[JHbowhunter]

Great idea to improve buck scoring, as current system was very flawed.     Under current system, a very young, smallish racked 16 1/2 inch inside spread,  9 point buck, would beat out a very mature, massive racked 24" 8 point buck that would easily make record book.      

I think in case of "too close to call" then we would need to arrange for an official scorer to measure all racks that fit the "too close to call" category.   

Does anyone have a better idea?   I did a test drive on the auto-calculating form, it was a snap to enter.     It takes 5-10 minutes to measure a buck and one minute to complete the form.

Edited August 13, 2019 by JHbowhunter

[LPJR]

Current scoring system needed a revamp, agree with the new proposed interactive P&Y scoring...will be accurate as possible and fun as well.

[BowhunterNJ]

@Tarhunt no vote?

[JHbowhunter]

Can anyone see this poll???

 

[Tarhunt]

2 minutes ago, BowhunterNJ said:

@Tarhunt no vote?

I think it's a better way. 

[Tarhunt]

Just now, JHbowhunter said:

Can anyone see this poll???

 

Now I understand. I did not see a poll. 

[JHbowhunter]

1 minute ago, Tarhunt said:

Now I understand. I did not see a poll. 

Should be right at the top?  Seems like nobody is even seeing this entire thread.  If you don't even see a poll, I think Matt will have to redo it.

[Lunatic]

If you go the new way I am out. Most of the time it isn't practical for me to complete the P&Y type of measurements. You kill a buck at sunset, You track it, gut it and drag it, it maybe Sunday night with work next day, and it maybe 10Pm, 11PM or later by the time you get it to your butcher. What if the butcher closes one hr after sunset? What if its 20 degrees, are you going to go through it with frozen hands in the middle of the nigh?  Not really practical IMO.

Also you said we want to get it right. How much trouble you have with members giving you the few measurements you now require? This is what will happen IMO. You will look at a picture of a deer that looks like 100" deer with a score of 130" and then what? Provide pictures of all measurements? Again not very practical IMO

Edited August 13, 2019 by Lunatic

[Tarhunt]

6 minutes ago, Lunatic said:

If you go the new way I am out. Most of the time it isn't practical for me to complete the P&Y type of measurements. You kill a buck at sunset, You track it, gut it and drag it, it maybe Sunday night with work next day, and it maybe 10Pm, 11PM or later by the time you get it to your butcher. What if the butcher closes one hr after sunset? What if its 20 degrees, are you going to go through it with frozen hands in the middle of the nigh?  Not really practical IMO.

You have a valid point. Didn't think about that. 

[Nomad]

Measure it when you get the rack back.  Nothing says you have to measure it immediately.

[BowhunterNJ]

That is a good point we didn't think about.  This isn't a quick measurement, it will take some time and the butcher may have a head for awhile, and after that it's may be going to a taxidermist.

It's true the measuring is problematic, but it's also imbalanced, so that's a double edge sword of a bad scoring system for the contest currently.

@Lunatic any recommendations for an easier approach that offers more scoring balance?

 

[BowhunterNJ]

2 minutes ago, Nomad said:

Measure it when you get the rack back.  Nothing says you have to measure it immediately.

May not get it back from a taxidermist for a year or more

[JHbowhunter]

15 minutes ago, Lunatic said:

If you go the new way I am out. Most of the time it isn't practical for me to complete the P&Y type of measurements. You kill a buck at sunset, You track it, gut it and drag it, it maybe Sunday night with work next day, and it maybe 10Pm, 11PM or later by the time you get it to your butcher. What if the butcher closes one hr after sunset? What if its 20 degrees, are you going to go through it with frozen hands in the middle of the nigh?  Not really practical IMO.

Also you said we want to get it right. How much trouble you have with members giving you the few measurements you now require? This is what will happen IMO. You will look at a picture of a deer that looks like 100" deer with a score of 130" and then what? Provide pictures of all measurements? Again not very practical IMO

The amount of time it takes to do current system, means you were having access to it at some point.  To take just a few more minutes to get it right....  not a big deal.  Then go enter it into the online calculator at your leisure - not a big deal, again I just tested it out.    Obviously processing your meat and arranging with a taxidermist is paramount.    Getting your contest information squared away is always secondary and there is no requirement that it has to be done "same day".   Don't be a lazy ass lunatic!  

[JHbowhunter]

42 minutes ago, BowhunterNJ said:

May not get it back from a taxidermist for a year or more

I have processed 18 bucks through a taxidermist. At no time was there ever a period when I could not take some simple measurements.   Better yet  - do it with your taxidermist.  Also you can hold onto the antlers.  In fact - anyone interested in entering a buck in P&Y, I highly recommend holding your antlers until your taxi needs them.   It's much easier for a scorer to do the official score after 60 day drying period, BEFORE they are mounted.

Edited August 13, 2019 by JHbowhunter