2019-20 Hunting regulations

[nickmarch]

3 hours ago, Lunatic said:

I’m not reading 7 pages but  what are you trying to accomplish? Is it just the ability to possess weapon within 300’ of bait site while Turkey hunting? Why? 

If you are hunting from the ground you are not violating the law.  The NJ State Statute says...

23:4-24.2.  Shooting or taking game bird or animal from tree or structure within 300 feet of baited area

    No person shall, except under emergency conditions authorized by the Division of Fish and Game, kill, destroy, injure, shoot, shoot at, take, wound,  or attempt to take, kill, or wound a game bird or game animal, or have in his  possession or control any firearm or other weapon of any kind, while elevated  in a standing tree, or in a structure of any kind within 300 feet of a baited  area under a penalty of $50.00 for each offense.

 

[BowhunterNJ]

12 minutes ago, nickmarch said:

If you are hunting from the ground you are not violating the law.  The NJ State Statute says...

23:4-24.2.  Shooting or taking game bird or animal from tree or structure within 300 feet of baited area

    No person shall, except under emergency conditions authorized by the Division of Fish and Game, kill, destroy, injure, shoot, shoot at, take, wound,  or attempt to take, kill, or wound a game bird or game animal, or have in his  possession or control any firearm or other weapon of any kind, while elevated  in a standing tree, or in a structure of any kind within 300 feet of a baited  area under a penalty of $50.00 for each offense.

 

1. I think that conflicts with the current NJDFW game code and hunting regulations as you are permitted to hunt from an elevated position within 300 feet for some game.  There is no defined "emergency" I'm aware of.
    
2. I'm still confused as to what exactly the problem is you are petitioning.  You can hunt on the ground for turkeys.  If there happens to be bait you were not aware of nearby, then you aren't breaking any laws regardless, no?  You can't possibly know every place everyone may bait for deer, bears, etc.

[nickmarch]

Please read my last post where I quoted the law.  The law refers to game animals and Game Birds.  It is not specific to bears.

Fines are set by NJ State Statute not by Fish and Wildlife Council.

13:1B-30.  State Fish and Game Code

"...penalties for the violation of which are  prescribed by certain of the sections of Title 23 of the Revised Statutes  amended herein"

My petition is the legal and required by law method to repeal a regulation. 

[BowhunterNJ]

So you are saying the NJ State Statute supersedes the NJDFW Game Code Regulations?

[nickmarch]

2 minutes ago, BowhunterNJ said:

1. I think that conflicts with the current NJDFW game code and hunting regulations as you are permitted to hunt from an elevated position within 300 feet for some game.  There is no defined "emergency" I'm aware of.
    
2. I'm still confused as to what exactly the problem is you are petitioning.  You can hunt on the ground for turkeys.  If there happens to be bait you were not aware of nearby, then you aren't breaking any laws regardless, no?

1. Exactly! The law conflicts with the regulation.  That is what my petition is all about.  If you are hunting turkey from the ground within 300' of bait you are not violating the law but are violating the Regulation. 

A law rules over a regulation when there is a conflict so the regulation should be repealed.

 

[BowhunterNJ]

3 minutes ago, nickmarch said:

1. Exactly! The law conflicts with the regulation.  That is what my petition is all about.  If you are hunting turkey from the ground within 300' of bait you are not violating the law but are violating the Regulation. 

A law rules over a regulation when there is a conflict so the regulation should be repealed.

 

So is your concern the shop owner may call the police who would ticket you, whereas a NJDFW warden would not (as you experienced)?  I'm pretty sure the police would call the NJDFW game warden in the event of a suspected hunting violation, however the police would pursue something like trespassing or theft on private property (the latter theft issue on a WMA again would fall to the NJDFW warden [I've been through that exercise already]).

Either way, I think you'd need to contact NJDFW in your defense if the police did happen to apply the statute.  This has happened before in towns that have a "no discharge" law and hunters who were legally hunting within the regulations got cited by local police but were within their full rights to hunt legally as they did.

As @Bucksnbows mentioned, it would be worth reaching out to NJDFW LE division and offer to work with them to address your concerns with this shop owner and otherwise.  The way I understand it, NJDFW controls the laws and regulations around hunting, NJ (nor municipal) statutes do not supersede them.  The NJ statute you quoted is the very outdated version of the old NJDFW hunting regulations.

[nickmarch]

10 minutes ago, BowhunterNJ said:

So you are saying the NJ State Statute supersedes the NJDFW Game Code Regulations?

Yes. An Administrative Rule aka a Regulation

52:14B-2

  "Administrative rule" or "rule," when not otherwise modified, means each agency statement of general applicability and continuing effect that implements or interprets law

The turkey regulation does not implement or interpret any law. It's an illegally made regulation.

[nickmarch]

8 minutes ago, BowhunterNJ said:

So is your concern the shop owner may call the police who would ticket you, whereas a NJDFW warden would not (as you experienced)?  I'm pretty sure the police would call the NJDFW game warden in the event of a suspected hunting violation, however the police would pursue something like trespassing or theft on private property (the latter theft issue on a WMA again would fall to the NJDFW warden [I've been through that exercise already]).

Either way, I think you'd need to contact NJDFW in your defense if the police did happen to apply the statute.  This has happened before in towns that have a "no discharge" law and hunters who were legally hunting within the regulations got cited by local police but were within their full rights to hunt legally as they did.

As @Bucksnbows mentioned, it would be worth reaching out to NJDFW LE division and offer to work with them to address your concerns with this shop owner and otherwise.  The way I understand it, NJDFW controls the laws and regulations around hunting, NJ (nor municipal) statutes do not supersede them.  The NJ statute you quoted is the very outdated version of the old NJDFW hunting regulations.

It was a game warden not a police officer that ruined my hunt.  It was also the game warden that looked for bait and would have fined me if there was bait within 300'.

The law that I quoted is not old or outdated it is the current law.

Edited July 24, 2019 by nickmarch
Added screenshot of the Statute

[Bucksnbows]

10 hours ago, nickmarch said:

The Regulation that I petitioned to repeal is the regulation that forbids the possession of a weapon within 300' of bait while turkey hunting.  The law allows the possession of a weapon within 300' of bait when hunting from the ground.  There is a link to the petition below. 

 

You do not cite the law here but rather refer to the fact it exists.  Where is it that state law you keep referring to?  That would help you to make your argument.  

[nickmarch]

1 minute ago, Bucksnbows said:

You do not cite the law here but rather refer to the fact it exists.  Where is it that state law you keep referring to?  That would help you to make your argument.  

I attached a screenshot

[Bucksnbows]

2 minutes ago, nickmarch said:

I attached a screenshot

You were talking about hunting on the ground within 300' of bait for turkeys.  That is illegal just as it would be to be elevated or in a ground blind and hunting over bait within 300'.  I'm not really sure what your true argument is here?  The above law may still be in effect, but it was written in 1970.  We know that we can hunt deer over bait within 300' and bears over bait so long as we are not in any type of constructed blind or stand.  And we know that we can't hunt over bait for turkeys from the ground, in a blind, or in a tree within 300' of bait.

[nickmarch]

18 minutes ago, Bucksnbows said:

You were talking about hunting on the ground within 300' of bait for turkeys.  That is illegal just as it would be to be elevated or in a ground blind and hunting over bait within 300'.  I'm not really sure what your true argument is here?  The above law may still be in effect, but it was written in 1970.  We know that we can hunt deer over bait within 300' and bears over bait so long as we are not in any type of constructed blind or stand.  And we know that we can't hunt over bait for turkeys from the ground, in a blind, or in a tree within 300' of bait.

There are Statutes that allow hunting over bait for deer. There is a Statute that forbids baiting waterfowl.  There is no Statute that forbids being within 300' of bait when turkey hunting from the ground. There is a Statute that forbids being within 300' of bait when hunting turkey from a tree or structure of any kind.

Please don't get me started with Bear baiting.  The Dept Fish/Wildlife does not seem to care about the laws that pertain to them and what they are required to Do to make regulations.

Edited July 24, 2019 by nickmarch

[Lunatic]

3 hours ago, Bucksnbows said:

I have a few issues with your lengthy post.  First of all, the regulation you refer to where you can hunt within 300' of bait if on the ground pertains to bear hunting, not deer or turkey hunting.  Second, you say the Fish & Game Council's "duty is to set dates, protect wildlife, etc.".  I hope you know that setting fines and other punishments is part of their job and fall under "protecting wildlife".  Also, you said you "submitted a petition over 60 days ago".  To whom?  And you realize your petition means nothing from a purely legal standpoint?  The Council can choose to ignore it as it carries no legal authority on its own.  Lastly, the August meeting was cancelled because they 1) passed the new Game Code at the July meeting, and 2) August is a heavy vacation month for both Division staff and Council members.  They would have only met next month if they couldn't pass the Game Code for whatever reason the other week.

Sounds like you have a local bad actor.  Have discussions with your local COs about his antics.  It should go a long way to clearing the air and keeping you out of more headaches from being accused of something you said you did not do and were not ticketed for.  That would be my advice.     

Just imagine where we would end up if it just took a petition from anyone to change regulations 

[nickmarch]

7 minutes ago, Lunatic said:

Just imagine where we would end up if it just took a petition from anyone to change regulations 

Actually that is the way it is.  Anyone can petition to have a Regulation made, changed or repealed but there has to be legal grounds to do so. 

[Lunatic]

3 minutes ago, nickmarch said:

Actually that is the way it is.  Anyone can petition to have a Regulation made, changed or repealed but there has to be legal grounds to do so. 

It’s not the way it is. You can’t just petition and have them change the rules. As you said you have to find legal grounds.