New Jersey Antler Restrictions

[Palawman30]

What are your thoughts and opinions on this highly controversial subject?

 

Is high grading happening?

 

Can it even succeed with the high buck bag limit?

 

Are AR even biologically necessary ?

 

Is AR a feel good measure for hunters?

 

Can Ar exist with herd reduction or do they both go hand in hand?

 

Lets hear what you guys have to say........

 

 

Rusty- Whats your take on this?

 

 

Edited January 5, 2014 by BowhunterNJ

[Axiom]

I hunt both zone 8 ( HackleBarney, private property and county park )  and 9 ( Black river wildlife management area ) .. Zone 9 has antler restictions, zone 8 doesnt... My observations are this.. Zone 9 Public land has MORE shooters than zone 8 Public land... BUT zone 8 has the biggest bucks, and fewer shooters...

[BHC]

it needs to be statewide, not limited to zones but NJ will never do that....zones that have lots of public like zone 4 draws in many weekend only hunters or out of state hunters, NJ wants them to have a chance at a buck, some AR will never happen for this zone

[robnj]

forcing meat hunters and guys that would be happy to shoot small bucks to to trophy hunt is only going to lower the mature buck population. You want to kill an old buck .. you have to break your ass finding it not put bogus antler restrictions on guys that could care less about antler points. you will just end up with more young bucks with a few more points and fewer real old trophies.

[Haskell_Hunter]

We have QDM in Zone 3 (Wanaque, Ringwood, Bloomingdale).  My area has over 15,000 acres of state land (Wanaque Reservoir - ~3,500 acres, Norvin Green - 5,416 acres, Ringwood State Park 4,444 acres, and Long Pond Ironworks State Park - 6,911) and I rarely see deer in those woods.  They're out there, but I don't get awesome deer signs like some of the folks who post here.  Maybe because it's all public land and the pressure is on, but QDM hasn't made any noticeable difference on the publicly-hunted lands, IMHO.

 

I should also add that those lands are all heavily hiked too.  Their accessibility may bring significant pressure and most large game stays away as a result.

[Rusty]

Mississippi has collected some good data on the effects of ARs.  Pages 5-8 of this report gives a good summary.

 

http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p2427.pdf

 

We conclude the 4-point antler restriction has reduced average antler size of older bucks on numerous public hunting areas in Mississippi.

 

 

From these results we can draw two conclusions. First, the change in percentage composition of the harvest can be explained almost entirely by the removal of 1.5 year bucks from the harvest. Judging the success of an antler restriction based solely on a shift in percentage of age classes in the harvest can lead to incorrect conclusions. Second, the regulation reduced overall buck harvest about one third. While this reduction was restricted to the yearling age class, the protected yearlings were not taken in significant numbers in later years. 

 

Edited January 3, 2014 by Rusty

[Matty]

What are your thoughts and opinions on this highly controversial subject?

 

In the past, I have always been very much on the fence with APR, as I can see how there could be benefits, but it could be detrimental as well. I have written these feelings over and over so many times, I almost hate to write about it again. lol But I'll play along.

 

 

Is high grading happening?

 

In my opinion, it very well could be and I believe there's been at least one study in the South and maybe a few out West that prove it occurs. However to play devils advocate, I will say that bucks don't necessarily show their true potential when they are young, so even though APR may cause you to shoot more young 6's or 8's, that doesn't mean that the sub-APR bucks left behind are definitely inferior genetically. They could simply be late births or received poor nutrition or high stress the first year. Many times they can catch up and in some cases surpass other bucks in future years of antler growth.

 

What I don't like about APR is that you can not manage those few and rare mature bucks that become 4 pointers or less. Granted they are extremely rare, but they do occur, and I've actually seen more in zone 9, which is APR. (however, my sightings could be skewed because I spend a lot of time in Zone 9 as opposed to other zones)

 

So in my opinion, yes I think high-grading is very likely to occur when APR is instituted at a basic level, because pressure on young bucks that meet the APR criteria are more heavily targeted, and they very well could be your better bucks if they are already growing 8 point racks.

 

Sadly, another downside to APR that I have *possibly seen on a couple occasions is sub-APR bucks left to rot because they were shot (without looking I guess) and left to lay since they weren't legal. That really upsets me. (the reason I say possibly is because maybe they just weren't recovered, but the antlers did not meet the APR criteria) I know that doesn't relate to high-grading, but figured I'd mention it.

 

 

Can it even succeed with the high buck bag limit?

 

I don't think it greatly impacts APR efforts, but it certainly won't help it. The biggest problem I see with so many buck tags that have expiration dates throughout the season is that some hunters will lower standards to fill the current tag, knowing they have another one coming to them soon. That hurts your age structure, because guys that may have been a little (or a lot) more selective are now filling a tag just because it expires. Those young bucks need to make it to become mature bucks to maintain age structure. The amount of buck tags just hurts that cause in several ways.

 

I honestly think we could try issuing two buck tags, use them with any weapon you want at any time in the season. Then you're done. Do that for 5 years and see what the effects are. Now I recognize that even that could cause problems, such as people that are more successful during early season or the rut, it may end up in more bucks being taken. However, I think it would increase a lot of hunters selectivity.  

 

 

Are AR even biologically necessary ?

Of course not. APR is most certainly not necessary to the perpetuation of whitetail deer. It's just something some hunters want because they believe it will increase their chances at "bigger bucks".

 

Is AR a feel good measure for hunters?

 

In my simplest answer, YES. The best way to increase the number of mature bucks is through education of the hunters harvesting the deer. Educate the hunters that are interested in QDM and we can be successful without limits being imposed on anyone.

 

 

Can Ar exist with herd reduction or do they both go hand in hand?

 

Herds management doesn't really boil down to buck harvests, I mean it still factors in, but the bulk of your deer herd management comes in the number and age of the does you harvest. So while I wouldn't say they go "hand in hand", APR doesn't factor into herd reduction at a great enough level to be concerned with. 

 

 

My final thoughts on the matter are that APR is really not the way to go. It's fine if you're on a farm and institute it on a general level (8 pts, wider than the ears or something like that), because you can remove it for certain deer or hunters. An example would be if you have one of those rare old 4pts or what have you....You can make a collective decision to harvest him anyway. And perhaps put a youth or new hunter on that buck.

 

But a State-wide, law requiring hunters to follow APR is not the ticket. No need to impose that on new hunters, youth hunters, or anyone else that may not have time to hunt for a "trophy", especially considering that even if it is beneficial, (which I don't believe it is), it's impact is very small. 

 

Educate hunters to the benefits of learning to accurately estimate age in the field, passing young deer, recognizing that "management bucks" are extremely rare and that even a spike can grow up to be a very large antlered buck. Educate them on age structure, D:B ratios, habitat improvement, nutrition, etc. The more everyone knows about the resource, the more they will care about it and the more they can do to better it.

 

I actually think we've made excellent progress in that respect over the last 10 years or so. 

 

 

[Matty]

Oh sure...I get done typing all that and see that Rusty took the easy way out. LOL

Edited January 3, 2014 by Matty

[Rusty]

Oh sure...I get done typing all that and see that Rusty took the easy way out. LOL

 

 

 

Actually I didn't.  Harvest records tell the truth, opinions are like . . . well you know.  So I will keep my opinion to myself and just stick to the facts.

 

And the results show that where ARs have been implemented, the number of older bucks being harvested does not go up, but the genetic quality of bucks does goes down.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Rusty

[BowhunterNJ]

And the results show that where ARs have been implemented, the number of older bucks being harvested does NOT go up, but the genetic quality of bucks does goes down.

 

Personally, that's what I would expect to happen with ARs.  Age not antler restrictions are the only way to balance the age class and genetics of deer.

The problem is, most hunters can't identify deer by age or poor genetics, a lot of assumptions are made, especially with younger (1.5 and 2.5 yr old) deer with a belief that they'll never be bigger when they indeed could be with better nutrition and time (age).   And in some areas, nothing will make a difference, the genetics and nutrition just aren't there.

[Matty]

 

 

opinions are like . . .

 

...nuggets of gold when they belong to Matty?

[Rusty]

opinions are like ...nuggets of gold when they belong to Matty?

 

So true.  

[Bucksnbows]

Matty touched on a critical part of ARs which is the need to manage the doe herd.  Until most of NJ has their local doe herds in line, and we are nowhere near that over most of the state, then ARs will have no impact.  Haskell_Hunter makes a good observation about his area and I know that because I grew up hunting zone 3.  Not only is that zone heavily hunted, but it lacks a lot of prime deer habitat.  Much of it is simply mature forest habitat with relatively few homes compared with most of the state.  In zone 3 you will find few deer, but some big bucks if you're lucky.  

 

In PA, the closest state to us that instituted ARs many years ago already, they did so with a conscious effort to significantly reduce their doe herd at the same time.  That was a much easier task throughout much of that state because of a few reasons.  Fewer congestion and more huntable lands in addition to a very large hunter base allowed PA to quickly reduce its overall herd.  My experiences in hunting PA since the late 70s on the same ground each year tells me that it has not changed hunter behavior.  Hunters will still harvest the first legal buck they encounter in the woods and many or most of those bucks are 1 1/2 year olds that have at least 3 points on one side.  As Matty said, ARs are more effective when applied by local landowners/hunters on their respective pieces of property.  

 

I know that NJ recently added several AR zones (south Jersey if I recall) and in the first year they saw an overall reduction in the number of does taken.  That defeats the purpose and, in my opinion, those zones will fail to see "bigger bucks" over time since hunters have stopped focusing on doe management and began to focus on only shooting legal bucks.  As I've said ad nauseum, NJ is the single most difficult state to manage deer populations and that is directly correlated to our human population which has created fantastic habitat in areas with no or severely limited hunting among houses and office/factory complexes.  Too many NJ hunters want to see midwestern bucks which simply cannot happen.  Wildlife biologists know this, but they don't throw it in hunters' faces because they realize it will fall on deaf ears.  So our overall deer management goals throughout most (not all) of NJ will continue to be general herd reduction of both bucks and does.  And that will anger those in zones that already have too few deer (in the individual hunter's eyes).  

 

Can ARs improve the age class of bucks in some areas?  Yes.  Will state-wide ARs work?  No. 

[Palawman30]

I don't know enough about any studies done in jersey to even really comment on Ar there....

 

I do know that we have had full Ar in Pa since 2001 and a couple studies have been done.

 

The biggest difference between Pa and Nj is Pa is a 1 buck a year state with a higher hunter base than Nj

 

I was adamantly against any type of Anter Restriction in Pa because I believed a lot of what you guys posted also.

Over time those beliefs changed because none of them came true.

In Pa before Ar we were killing close to 90% of our yearling every single year.

Since Ar we are killing 50% that are Ar legal with is 3 points to a side for most of the state. With the remaining kill being 2.5 plus year old bucks. The biggest difference besides better racks was bigger body sizes.

 

To me Ar WILL NEVER work in Nj for one reason and one reason only...

WAY to many buck are killed and not enough doe.

Its been proven through many breeding studies that a single buck may breed up to 3 doe through a cycle. If there are not enough buck to breed the available doe then you end up with very skewed breeding cycles and late born fawns. That is the #1 indicator of poor herd health.

Antler restrictions help to better balance a herds age structure to ensure a better breeding takes place on time when its supposed to.. Not December and January. All that does is continue the cycle of yearling bucks playing catch up.

If Nj really wants Ar to work it has to go to a 1 or 2 buck a year limit coupled with bringing the herd in line with what the available habitat can truly support. Not what hunters want to see. Hunters want targets. I want targets. lol its why we hunt....its all about balance though and right now there really is none...

Edited January 4, 2014 by Palawman30

[Bucksnbows]

Well said, PA.  I didn't mention that while we now kill far fewer bucks per year at our PA hunting camp since the inception of ARs, we do kill much bigger and older bucks when we do take one.  And we see a buck to doe ratio unlike anything we ever saw before in that state.  I remember counting 93 baldies one opening day back in the late 80s and not a buck in there anywhere.  Now I typically only see maybe 5 - 7 deer on opening day, but at least 2 will be bucks.  That's a huge difference.  But like you say, NJ deer hunters want MORE deer, not less.  It's that old philosophy that having a ton of deer means you'll have better bucks by default.  Deer biology proves that to be incorrect.  And it's the reason why you can't find the Division's deer management plan in writing.  Until we can bring the doe herds in balance with their habitat, we won't produce a good crop of older age class bucks.  That and things like the 6 bucks hunters can legally take if they use all three weapon types and buy the appropriate permits.