How many ANTLERED > = 3" Bucks did you shoot this year?

[Tbryant]

3 minutes ago, Pathman said:

I understand, but why would you want to eliminate flexibility for the hunter?

You don’t have to purchase all the permits currently offered, and you could certainly take two bucks without buying any permits, so why would you wa t to take  away other hunters option to hunt certain times of the year that may be their only available time, especially if they’re willing to pay for the opportunity? 

Again, you’re fixating on what you would prefer the system to look like, and not considering the big picture my friend. 

He is talking about using two flexible tags that can be used throughout the season. Where are you getting he wants to eliminate flexibility or take away hunter options to hunt certain times of the year? You get your tags, they can be used sept-feb (if the seasons stay the same), any weapon. Theres's no early bow, permit bow , muzzy, shotgun tag, etc. It's here's your two tags, use them. If you want to shoot your two bucks during early bow, go ahead. If you want to use them later in the season, you still can. How does that eliminate any opportunity? If anything it gives people better opportunity

[JHbowhunter]

18 minutes ago, Tbryant said:

He is talking about using two flexible tags that can be used throughout the season. Where are you getting he wants to eliminate flexibility or take away hunter options to hunt certain times of the year? You get your tags, they can be used sept-feb (if the seasons stay the same), any weapon. Theres's no early bow, permit bow , muzzy, shotgun tag, etc. It's here's your two tags, use them. If you want to shoot your two bucks during early bow, go ahead. If you want to use them later in the season, you still can. How does that eliminate any opportunity? If anything it gives people better opportunity

exactly - what I am proposing is the ULTIMATE win/win for the state and for the NJ deer hunter. Be like Ohio - you need a hunting license to "hunt".  Given it's NJ - separate license for archery, muzzy, shotgun - or include as "all around" as we do today.   Then you buy your deer permits by zone.    zone permits have nothing to do with season or weapon - they have EVERYTHING to do with QUOTA.    Then you can buy up to two flexible buck tags.   

NJ then sets the seasons - EAB BOW, then just BOW SEASON which runs October through January). Muzzloader can start after Thanksgiving, and shotgun can still be traditional week.  If NJ wants to add additional muzzy and shotgun days as is present - go for it. 

Other than the two flex buck tags  - antler-less quotas are "by zone" meaning the zone you purchased. 

This system will give the hunter the ultimate freedom, and possible more revenue for state, and most definitely give state best tool for management. 

I will keep trying to explain this until it resonates....

[Rusty]

I shot a bunch of bucks with my phone this year but none with the bow.  

Edited February 6, 2019 by Rusty

[Pathman]

2 hours ago, Tbryant said:

Where are you getting he wants to eliminate flexibility or take away hunter options to hunt certain times of the year?

Where I’m getting is, you are arbitrarily deciding for the other 99.9% of hunters in NJ, that two bucks are all that they can take, and this is after the lead biologist, and JH, agree that the number of hunters that take more than two bucks is statistically insignificant. Regardless if they do or don’t take more than two, your plan is taking away that option.

So, if that’s the case, why limit a hunter that may want to take more than two males for whatever reason in a season? 

And, you’re not even considering how that lost revenue would impact the Division, not are you considering what impact an open season, so to speak, would have on COs ability to regulate, and who knows what other affects a plan like that may have. 

Now, I’m not saying I know for a fact parts of your proposed plan wouldn’t work, what I’m saying is you need more data and facts to back what your proposing. 

[bucky]

deer exterminator verses pro-bow purist....absolutely priceless! Thank god I'm  a happy medium

Edited February 6, 2019 by bucky

[Pathman]

“Why Bucky, whatever do you mean?”

[JHbowhunter]

1 hour ago, Pathman said:

Where I’m getting is, you are arbitrarily deciding for the other 99.9% of hunters in NJ, that two bucks are all that they can take, and this is after the lead biologist, and JH, agree that the number of hunters that take more than two bucks is statistically insignificant. Regardless if they do or don’t take more than two, your plan is taking away that option.

So, if that’s the case, why limit a hunter that may want to take more than two males for whatever reason in a season? 

And, you’re not even considering how that lost revenue would impact the Division, not are you considering what impact an open season, so to speak, would have on COs ability to regulate, and who knows what other affects a plan like that may have. 

Now, I’m not saying I know for a fact parts of your proposed plan wouldn’t work, what I’m saying is you need more data and facts to back what your proposing. 

It's a start - every proposal needs a counter-proposal, so where is yours?  What do you think the perfect deer management / hunter licensing plan is?  Something that allows folks to fill their freezers, keep the herd in check, and gives bucks a chance to reach maturity which a percentage of the hunting population actually care about?   (if you don't care about bucks reaching mature ages - just say so). 

[Pathman]

I don’t have a counter proposal, because I have no real problem with the current system, nor do i have an agenda. 

I’m not saying it’s perfect, or that positive changes can’t be made, especially the separation of public/private land, which is coming down to an issue of “haves and have nots,” which is a very dangerous situation as it creates an internal battle that will erode relationships and cooperation and end up hurting all of us in the end. 

And just an FYI, I’ve likely passed more 120-130” bucks than most hunters in NJ have ever seen, so before any more of you throw labels around, you have no idea what I do or how I do it, so you’re speaking from a  position of complete ignorance. 

That being said, the only reason any of this self made controversy even exists, is due to one reason, and one reason only,  antlers! 

Now, I like antlers as much as the next guy, but obviously not quite as much as many of you “antler whores” out there!  Yes, you know who you are, and don’t pretend you’re not. Everything you do, think and say regarding Deer hunting is based on Trophy antlers so you might have the chance to win the “measuring contest,” and I’m not talking about inches of antler! 🤨

All of you guys that scream “I don’t shoot does,” “I don’t shoot button bucks,” “ I don’t shoot sheds,” “ i won’t shoot a doe after she’s pregnant, but ill kill a spotted Fawn in order to get my buck tag,” “we should stop hunting after December” because i got my buck already and screw the rest of you, should I go on?  

The mentality of the above “hunters” is based strictly on antlers, it always is and always will be! So don’t give me any BS about how Deer should be managed in this state when all your thoughts and motivation are based on Trophy racks. You’ll all rely on the “other guys” to do the dirty work of killing the does that the state needs killed in order to prove that hunting is a viable management tool,  which BTW is the only thing that allows us to continue hunting  in most of NJ at this point anyway, becuse hunting would likely be stopped due to the human population density in much of the state if the Div wasn’t able to show that hunters can keep the herd at a mangageble level. So next time one of you “trophy hunters” decides to berate your fellow hunters for killing whatever, you might want to remember who’s doing the heavy lifting here, (and who’s sitting on their high horse going along for the ride and telling everyone how great a hunter they are), because it ain’t you! 

You guys think UBNJ is helping up in Saddle River becuse it’s a trophy hunt? (Well, maybe for a few that’s the motivation) No, it’s becaue they’ve fought the battles for years and realize that hunting in NJ is constantly in jeopardy, and that we as hunters need to step up and do what's needed at times for the greater good, so I commend them for that. 

Now, the purpose of my little rant is to make a point, which is,  step back for a second and take a look at what you’re proposing. I’m not just talking about JHs proposal, I’m talking about all the suggestions that typically come along here from some of you, that seasons be cut back, closed, restricted etc.

Do you realize what you’re doing? It’s taken years and years of constant battling by pro-hunting orgs in this state and around the country to ensure that our hunting rights are not taken away or restricted in any way, and you guys want to turn around and have us do it ourselves?!!! 

Wake the F up, stop being so damn selfish, and realize that you never give back ground, ever!!!

This state has some of the most liberal seasons/bag limits/dollar value in the country. You can hunt half the year, kill almost as many deer as you care to, you can hold out for a big buck, or not, which is your call based on the zone you hunt and the particular land, and yet, you’re not happy because your not able to shoot Iowa size bucks! 

We are our own worst enemy...

 

[toxo]

I'm an antler whore but you are right.Never give up ground!^^^^^^^^^^

[Pathman]

50 minutes ago, toxo said:

I'm an antler whore but you are right.Never give up ground!^^^^^^^^^^

Ha! First honest man today! But you fought the battles back in the day that earned you the right to be an antler Ho!😁

[JHbowhunter]

Pathman not arguing with you and ageee with most of what you said. I am not proposing giving back.  I am simply asking to restructure the permit/weapon system.  

[Lunatic]

On 2/5/2019 at 8:06 PM, Pathman said:

Just my two cents here guys, but you’re not getting anywhere near accurate data from this very limited sample size, and I also believe you’re not getting anywhere near the truth  on the majority of these polls, and I’ll tell you why I say that. 

Just like any other instance when an individual is asked to offer their opinion or thoughts on a somewhat controversial subject, the vocal minority will always deter free expression, and this is no different. Go to any town meeting where Deer issues are discussed, and you’ll see first hand how the extremely vocal minority will intimidate the reasonable folks into submission, I’ve seen it over and over. 

Same goes for a site like this where individuals become known and have a degree of credibility, or simply are very vocal about their opinions, that dynamic will factor into the substance of responses, and/or whether someone responds at all, as they will try to avoid any form of embarrassment or ridicule from other individuals. 

Save for a few individuals who could care less what others think, the vast majority will not expose themselves to negative comments, pressure, or flat out intimidation by others, so not only is this forum a very small sample size, but it’s highly skewed to the will of the vocal few. 

And just to answer the question before it’s asked, the reason I don’t offer more details on the types and numbers of Deer I take, is because I’m involved in a number of deer management programs that do not care to have any information made public, so I refrain from adding my info, because if not viewed from a strict management perspective may appear to be other than reasonable or totally misinterpreted.

And one last thought if I might. All of you who are espousing these ideas and plans for the management of the deer herd in NJ, and while you have your hearts in the right place, your heads are not, because you’re overlooking the most basic of issues here, which is that you can not manage the state as a whole! The private land/ farmland/suburban landscapes would be virtually devastated within two to three years if your plans were implemented. 

The various lands must be separated and managed completely differently for the goals of each. The state hunting lands need more deer to keep the recreational hunters happy, which would have to be done through regulations that allow for that type of population density, while the other environments need to be managed to the tolerance level of the general public (remember, the other 98% of the NJ population).

So as much as many of your “pie in the sky” plans appear like the promised land, they are not based on any scientific data whatsoever and would likely be impossible to sustain. 

 

 

 

 

I don’t agree, this is an anonymous poll so deterring free expression goes out the window. 

[Lunatic]

20 hours ago, Tbryant said:

He is talking about using two flexible tags that can be used throughout the season. Where are you getting he wants to eliminate flexibility or take away hunter options to hunt certain times of the year? You get your tags, they can be used sept-feb (if the seasons stay the same), any weapon. Theres's no early bow, permit bow , muzzy, shotgun tag, etc. It's here's your two tags, use them. If you want to shoot your two bucks during early bow, go ahead. If you want to use them later in the season, you still can. How does that eliminate any opportunity? If anything it gives people better opportunity

How? Minus 4 bucks 

[Pathman]

2 hours ago, Lunatic said:

I don’t agree, this is an anonymous poll so deterring free expression goes out the window. 

It doesn’t go out the window when the forum discussion ensues however Lun. 

Thats when the negative commentary and insults have an impact on the free expression.  

[Pathman]

To add, if you see the post by UBNJ President regarding honoring a past President (didn’t want to start up a discussion in that post out of respect for Lou and UBNJ), that’s exactly what I’m talking about when I say it was a hard fought battle for many years to get us where we are now, and I’d just hate to see it given up for selfish reasons. 

There aren’t many guys like that around anymore, so if the SHTF today (bear hunt as an example) I don’t know if we’d be able to mount enough of a defense to counter it. 

All I can say is we better start thinking more like a team, as opposed to our current “state of the (NJ hunters) union!”