Game of Thrones [WARNING SPOILERS]

[not on the rug]

I'm going to lean back on history with this one, and it could be an important plot element that is underlooked.

 

"The final victory went to a claimant of the Lancastrian party, Henry Tudor, Earl of Richmond, who defeated the last Yorkist king, Richard III, at the Battle of Bosworth Field. After assuming the throne as Henry VII, he married Elizabeth of York, the eldest daughter and heir of Edward IV, thereby uniting the two claims. The House of Tudor ruled the Kingdom of England until 1603, with the death of Elizabeth I, granddaughter of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York."

 

So after the battle there has to be a wedding to unite the clans.  Who is getting married?  And from which clans?

 

Sansa and Tyrion?  They are the most likely unless of course it's Jon and Sansa when they find out that they're not that closely related.  But there isn't another female character who is likely to fill that role.  It would also help determine who may sit on the iron throne and unite the clans.

Interesting that you go there...

 

It won't be Jon and Dany.  One or both of them will almost certainly die.  The obvious female is Sansa.  Matching her with Tryion seems far-fetched, but he was always kind to her and protected her.  She will respect that.  Not sure she'll want to marry him though.  Dark horse is Arya and Gendry.  There was something weird between them that could blossom in to fruition.   Sansa and Gendry perhaps?  Finally uniting Baratheon and Stark in blood.  

 

My guess is that if there is some sort of marriage (I kinda don't think there will be) is that it will be between Stark and Targaryn. This entire shitshow was started because of the love between a Stark (Lyanna) and a Targaryn (Rhaegar).  Non book readers don't quite understand the depth of this , but it has been hinted at through numerous conversations during the course of the show.  Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna.  They were in love.  He won the tournament at Harrenhal and presented Lyanna with his favor (a bouquet of  blue roses) thus declaring her the queen of love and beauty.  Remember that at the time Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell and that Lyanna was betrothed to Robert Baratheon.  Afterwards they spent time together and fell in love.  They ran off together and got married in secret and she became pregnant.  It's not that far fetched of a theory if you really think about it.  The Tower of Joy scene completely gives it away.  Why else would Sir Arthur Dayne (a member of the kingsguard, Rhaegar's best friend, and the greatest swordsman who ever lived) be protecting Lyanna Stark and her unborn child at a far away, hidden location in Dorne.  If Rhaegar kidnapped and raped her, why would he care who was with her?  The answer is that Lyanna was carrying the rightful heir to the crown, through marriage.  If/when the mad king died, The crown became Rhaegar's.  If/when Rhaegar died (which he did when Robert killed him in single combat) the crown became that babys.  Baby Jon Snow was the rightful king of westeros and thus being protected by 2 (in the book 3) kingsguard.  

 

So...When Lyanna ran off, The dad (Rickard) and oldest brother (Brandon) rode to kings landing to demand that the mad king have rhaegar release lyanna. That's when the mad king murdered them with his sick torture game.  That was the push that Ned Stark needed to join Robert in the rebellion, thus aligning the north and the stormlands and becoming powerful enough to actually lead a successful rebellion.    

 

Anyway, that was a bit long winded...just remember (well, you guys probably don't) that GRRM stated that the ending will be bittersweet.  Also remember that GRRM writes strong independent female characters.  None of them are going to want/need to get married to unify much of anything.  They are ass kickers on their own.  BUT...if there is a marriage, it may be one that unites the Targs and the Starks because that's how this ridiculous love story started in the first place

 

here is the ToJ scene.  Listen carefully to the wording that Arthur Dayne uses.  Also remember that Ned and Dayne had the utmost respect for one another.  When Dayne died, Ned returned Dawn (the sword) to Starfall (the ancestral home of the Daynes) and presented it to Ashara, Arthur's sister. we can dive in to that another day...

 

Edited July 19, 2017 by not on the rug

[Jerseygti337]

Jesus man I think I need to start reading the books. Just watching the show I have no idea how your coming up with half of this.

[not on the rug]

Jesus man I think I need to start reading the books. Just watching the show I have no idea how your coming up with half of this.

Well... I'd highly recommend that any fan of the show read the books. That being said, most of this stuff can be figured out from watching the show. Just look for subtleties in conversations, patterns, or things that seem out of the ordinary. And understand that they are working with nearly 6000 pages of book materialn plus 2 more books that haven't even been released yet. When you have to pare that all down in to what will amount to 73 episodes of tv, understand that everything they put in is there for a reason. For example, a couple seasons ago when sansa was talking to littlefinger and she said that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped her aunt Lyanna and Littlefinger replied something to the effect of "did he" that it meant something. It planted a seed.

 

Especially since Littlefinger is essentially the mastermind behind the unraveling of the Starks. He told Lysa to poison John Arryn. He told Lysa to write the letter to Catlyn and have Ned come to King's Landing. He betrayed Ned and had the gold cloaks kill Ned's men and arrest Ned. If Littlefinger says or does something, it has meaning. That is just one example.

 

Like I said earlier, I can go on for hours.

[Haskell_Hunter]

It can't be Baratheon and Stark, unless of course it is Gendry and Sansa.

 

I also think the dragons will have something to do with fighting the white walkers.  It's too simple that they're just forges for more valyrian steel.  And what is dragon glass's connection with creating white walkers?  You need a dragon to create dragon glass and that begets white walkers in men.  There is a linkage, but how it all works is elusive right now.

 

I do think Jamie kills Cersei, that much makes sense.  Or, maybe he intends to kill Cersei but someone else beats him to that.  Possibly it turns into a scene where he can kill or save her, and lets her die.  That would be more fitting because it's a long, drawn out, excruciatingly painful death.  But you have to slay the mountain to do that.

[Tarhunt]

Never saw it. Don't have that kind of time.

[LPJR]

It's the only TV I watch at all (making porn sites available to Middle Eastern countries is a helluva' lot more fun way to pass the time...).

 

 

When I think I have heard it all from Haskell Hunter, then this....You kill me HH.... lmao!

 

       

Edited July 19, 2017 by LPJR

[3Blade]

I'm getting a headache trying to read this thread! You guys are a bunch of geeks!   I'll stick with my Walking Dead.

[not on the rug]

It can't be Baratheon and Stark, unless of course it is Gendry and Sansa.

 

I also think the dragons will have something to do with fighting the white walkers.  It's too simple that they're just forges for more valyrian steel.  And what is dragon glass's connection with creating white walkers?  You need a dragon to create dragon glass and that begets white walkers in men.  There is a linkage, but how it all works is elusive right now.

 

I do think Jamie kills Cersei, that much makes sense.  Or, maybe he intends to kill Cersei but someone else beats him to that.  Possibly it turns into a scene where he can kill or save her, and lets her die.  That would be more fitting because it's a long, drawn out, excruciatingly painful death.  But you have to slay the mountain to do that.

The nights king was created by the children with dragon glass. Dragon glass created them and dragon glass can kill them. I'm not so sure that you need dragons to create dragon glass. I think thats just a name for the obsidian.

 

The more interesting thing for me is why does valyrian steel kill the walkers? Valyria and valyrian steel have nothing to do with the creation of the walkers.

 

Dragons will play a pivotal role in helping to defeat the white walkers. Unless, of course, they die and become ice dragons. I'm guessing that something wild like that goes down as well.

 

Jamie will almost certainly slay cersei. That not only feeds in to the valonquor prophecy (which the show leaves out) will also be his final test/task to allow him to become the prince who was promised.

 

Remember the story of a Azor Ahai. I'll link it below rather than type it out. If Jamie is The Prince Who was Promised (the rebirth of Azor Ahai) then it fits that he will follow a similar path. Where Azor slay his wife to forge the sword, Jamie will thus slay Cersei. It is the final task.

 

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Azor_Ahai

 

So now for the valonquor prophecy. Remember this scene from a few seasons ago?

https://youtu.be/FwHGNoMjHn8

 

Maggy the frog prophesizes that cersei will marry the king and be the queen until another younger, more beautiful queen takes that away from her. Well...Check. Margery did that. The next prophecy is that she will have 3 children and that she will see them all die. Check. The show conveniently leaves out the 3rd prophecy. The valonquor prophecy. In valyrian, valonquor means "little brother" and Maggy foretold that the valonquor will basically choke her to death. So she always thought that meant tyrion and has hated him since his birth. But remember that although they are twins, cersei was born first. Jamie is indeed her little brother. I think he'll kill 2 birds with 1 stone and fulfill both prophecies when he offs cersei

[not on the rug]

Here is a little tidbit I picked up yesterday.  

 

The scene when Jamie and Cersei are talking in the new Map room in Kings landing shows Cersei standing in the region known as "The Neck" and has Jamie standing on the part of Westeros known as "The fingers."  Maybe a hint of what is to come with the valonquor prophecy.

[Haskell_Hunter]

So I spoke with my wife last night about all this.  She had spoken to another friend who is also into the show.

 

Don't forget about the dragon riders.  There are only three potential Targaryns left: Jon, Danni, and Tyrion.  So all three need to be around for that part.  Can't see killing them off, and interestingly, Targaryns used to intermarry.  The Mad King's father broke from that tradition.  If Jon and Danni get married, that brings house Stark and Targaryn together to unite that part of the kingdom.  Tyrion conveniently enough brings half of house Lannister.  That would nearly unite the entire kingdom and secure Targaryn rule once again.

 

The Prince who was Promised could be Jon, because he technically is a prince and heir to the throne.  He wouldn't need to abdicate if he married Danni, and they could share the throne.  Tyrion would be critical in this debate between them by showing them both that they would be able to unite the kingdom and rule together.  They would also need to join together to beat the White Walkers.

 

I am thinking the Hound is the "younger brother", not Jamie.  The Hound is the younger brother of the Mountain, and he hates him.  There will be an epic battle between them with the Hound winning.  I think he cuts Cersei down and is the younger brother in that prophecy.  I'm not 100% up on it, but I'm not sure if it specifies if it is Cersei's blood younger brother or someone else's.

[not on the rug]

So I spoke with my wife last night about all this.  She had spoken to another friend who is also into the show.

 

Don't forget about the dragon riders.  There are only three potential Targaryns left: Jon, Danni, and Tyrion.  So all three need to be around for that part.  Can't see killing them off, and interestingly, Targaryns used to intermarry.  The Mad King's father broke from that tradition.  If Jon and Danni get married, that brings house Stark and Targaryn together to unite that part of the kingdom.  Tyrion conveniently enough brings half of house Lannister.  That would nearly unite the entire kingdom and secure Targaryn rule once again.

 

The Prince who was Promised could be Jon, because he technically is a prince and heir to the throne.  He wouldn't need to abdicate if he married Danni, and they could share the throne.  Tyrion would be critical in this debate between them by showing them both that they would be able to unite the kingdom and rule together.  They would also need to join together to beat the White Walkers.

 

I am thinking the Hound is the "younger brother", not Jamie.  The Hound is the younger brother of the Mountain, and he hates him.  There will be an epic battle between them with the Hound winning.  I think he cuts Cersei down and is the younger brother in that prophecy.  I'm not 100% up on it, but I'm not sure if it specifies if it is Cersei's blood younger brother or someone else's.

I'm not sold on the idea that there will be any dragon riders besides Dany...  Seems a bit cheesy to me, although the show is far cheesier than the books, so it may happen on tv but is not what GRRM will actually write.  

 

I do like the idea of a Stark-Targ marriage, because like I mentioned earlier, that is how this entire soap opera drama started.

 

GRRM has stated "The ending will be bittersweet."  The marriage could occur before the final battle and Jon and/or Dany could still die in the final battle.  I'm not sold on the idea that Dany or Jon could actually rule the 7 kingdoms.  Dany is borderline sociopath and Jon is oblivious to the threats around him ans he has proven time and time again.  On the other hand, Tyrion has the temperment for rule.

 

The hound could be the valonquor, but I just don't see how he is the one that would actually kill cersei.  Also, as bad as I'd like the hound to fight the mountain, I don't see it happening.  This could be another case of the show giving in to fan theories/wants and cheesing it up while GRRM would never write something like that.  the prophecy states that "the valonquor will wrap his hands around your pale white throat and choke the life from you"  while maggy the frog used the word "his," it is not clear whether valonquor is actually masculine or feminine.  It could actually mean little brother or little sister.  If it means little brother, i'm guessing Jamie.  If it means little sister, I'm going with Arya.  Cersei has been on the top of her list forever.    

 

The prince who was promised is obviously the burning question.  The prophecy states the the prince would be "Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star."  That has been and can be interpreted in so many ways.  

 

Sandor Clegane lived his life as "The Hound" for as long as any one could remember.  At the battle of Blackwater Bay (tons of salt and smoke), he lost his shit and left.  That was the beginning (actually re-birth) of Sandor Clegane.  Sandor is a good man underneath all of the bravado and pain.  He is evolving before our eyes and will be a major player and good guy in the war to come.   Remember that the red comet has been passing overhead for years (bleeding star).  Also, he has been kissed by fire, so he has that going for him.

 

Jamie Lannister is a good man.  He has been under the thumb of a tyrant (tywin) and a sociopath (cersei) for his entire life.  he was branded a bad man because he slay the mad king, but he did so in order to save the people of king's landing.  it was actually a good act.  the scene where he and brianne are in the hot tub  and talking and he tells the story of why he killed the mad king is one of the most powerful scenes in the books or show.  You can literally see the world change around him and see his re-birth.  born amidst salt and smoke, and yes, the red comet is overhead...

 

Jon snow is the tougher one actually.  he was born at the tower of joy, which lies in dorne.  it's nowhere near saltwater, although ned and lyanna were crying and the salty tears could be the salt.  there is no smoke though.  unless smoke means battle/fight. that may be a stretch. the big one there though is "born beneath a bleeding star."  so.....remember that sir arthur dayne carried a sword called dawn.  dawn was forged from the heart of a fallen star.  hell, the dayne's ancestral home is called starfall.  Ned had just slay arthur dayne and if you pay close attention to the way that scene is shot, ned climbs the tower and enters the room, he leans the bloody sword up against the end of the bed before he approaches lyanna.  the camera focuses on the sword for a second or two before cutting to ned/lyanna.  

 

so...take your pick.  There are certainly strong points for either of the three.      

 

On a side note, as a book reader, you know that Jamie is seemingly the most profoundly written and complex character.  IT's almost as if GRRM has a soft spot for him.  That being said, I'm guessing Jamie is either The prince or the valonquor or both.  the show may well differ from the books in that regard. 

[Haskell_Hunter]

I think Jamie sacrifices himself and he'll be a character that will die.  He can't fight, and over time he loses more and more of what he had.  Maybe GRRM knows that Jamie is the character who will experience the greatest losses, and up until now he has.  He is known as the Kingslayer, not the nicest of terms.  Lost his hand.  Lost his kids.  He's on the way to losing Cersei.  He lost his father.  He may have lost his brother; we'll see if they get a reunion.  Casterly Rock is out of gold, so he's lost that too.

 

Oh, I just thought of this one:  The title of the series is "A Song of Ice and Fire".  The Stark's sword is called Ice.  Gendry is a blacksmith who can (possibly) work with valyrian steel.  If he takes Oathkeeper and Widow's Wall and forges them back into Ice, that would fulfill the prophesy of "drawing Lightbringer from the flames".  Kind if a stretch, but it's plausible.  But in order to do that the sword would need to be forged in dragonfire and include magic.  I think Sam will discover how to make more valyrian steel in the books from the restricted section.  I also think the restricted section contains books on magic, which the maesters don't believe in.  The "formula" for creating dragonsteel and the process they go through to reforge Ice will create Lightbringer.  That would be a bittersweet moment, and it would require all aspects of the kingdom to unite and work together.  It also fits the title because people usually refer to "fire and ice" not "ice and fire", so I think the ice reference is the sword and the fire part is the fulfillment of the prophesy that it is drawn from the fire as Lightbringer.

 

Stannis's sword was enchanted and is now mystical, but it does not radiate heat like Lightbringer.  I think the part of the process that was missing was dragonfire.  You need magic and dragonfire to create Lightbringer, and that's why I suspect that it'll happen when Ice is reforged.  The story is about the sword, the characters are ancillary.

[not on the rug]

I think Jamie sacrifices himself and he'll be a character that will die.  He can't fight, and over time he loses more and more of what he had.  Maybe GRRM knows that Jamie is the character who will experience the greatest losses, and up until now he has.  He is known as the Kingslayer, not the nicest of terms.  Lost his hand.  Lost his kids.  He's on the way to losing Cersei.  He lost his father.  He may have lost his brother; we'll see if they get a reunion.  Casterly Rock is out of gold, so he's lost that too.

 

Oh, I just thought of this one:  The title of the series is "A Song of Ice and Fire".  The Stark's sword is called Ice.  Gendry is a blacksmith who can (possibly) work with valyrian steel.  If he takes Oathkeeper and Widow's Wall and forges them back into Ice, that would fulfill the prophesy of "drawing Lightbringer from the flames".  Kind if a stretch, but it's plausible.  But in order to do that the sword would need to be forged in dragonfire and include magic.  I think Sam will discover how to make more valyrian steel in the books from the restricted section.  I also think the restricted section contains books on magic, which the maesters don't believe in.  The "formula" for creating dragonsteel and the process they go through to reforge Ice will create Lightbringer.  That would be a bittersweet moment, and it would require all aspects of the kingdom to unite and work together.  It also fits the title because people usually refer to "fire and ice" not "ice and fire", so I think the ice reference is the sword and the fire part is the fulfillment of the prophesy that it is drawn from the fire as Lightbringer.

 

Stannis's sword was enchanted and is now mystical, but it does not radiate heat like Lightbringer.  I think the part of the process that was missing was dragonfire.  You need magic and dragonfire to create Lightbringer, and that's why I suspect that it'll happen when Ice is reforged.  The story is about the sword, the characters are ancillary.

I agree on the Jamie part.  I think he is losing what he was and being reborn though, which makes him a likely candidate for being the prince who was promised.  on a side note, there is an alternate theory that jamie and cersei are the children of the mad king and that tyrion is actually tywin's trueborn son.  or perhaps that none of them are tywin's children at all.  there is some supporting evidence here too.  jamie and cersei's incestuous relationship and joffrey's madness.  if you're interested in pursuing this idea, I'll link a thread below.  

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/106021-are-cersei-and-jamie-bastard-children-of-the-mad-king/

 

If you're familiar with the forging or lightbringer, you'll know that it had to be forged 3 times before azor ahai got it right, the final forging involved him finally quenching the sword in his wife's heart.  if ice is indeed reforged to be lightbringer,  I would imagine some sort of parallel forging or at least the knowledge of what azor ahai had done will be involved and there will need to be an ultimate sacrifce by someone in order to complete the forging.  who's chest will they quench the sword in?   I'm guessing one of the main characters will sacrifice themselves.  

 

Sam will most definitely learn quite a bit in the restricted section.  on a whole, i'm not sure where his character goes, but the knowledge will be passed to Jon and the gang somehow. I have a strange theory of my own.  Here goes.  Sam will continue to speak with Jorah here and there and will learn who Jorah is.  In his digging in the restricted section, Sam finds a cure for greyscale (possibly dragonglass?  i'll digreess in a minute) and he cures Jorah.  Jorah returns to Dany (who will be with Jon and the gang) and brings books, papers, parchments, etc to them from Sam.  Sam remains in oldtown.  OR...Sam returns with Jorah. 

 

on to dragonglass...grayscale kills everyone it encounters.  turns them in to monsters.  except for the princess shireen.  i know stanis said that he had maesters and healers from all over the world working on her, but what if she was cured/saved because she lived on a giant pile of dragonglass aka dragonstone.  dragon stone...  just a thought

 

i was just reading more about the prince who was promised prophecy.  it states that the prince will have a song of ice and fire.  the "song" of ice and fire could just mean his bloodline.  a mix of ice (stark) and fire (targaryn).  if the theory that the mad king is jamie's father, it holds true that jamie could be that prince.  same goes for jon.  that very well may eliminate clegane from the running though.  house clegane has no blood tie to stark or targ.  

 

it seems like jon is the favorite and most obvious choice.  i'm still saying it's jamie though

[Haskell_Hunter]

If Lightbringer is forged through great sacrifice, whose love needs to be the catalyst?  Meaning, which two characters are deeply in love enough to create that sacrifice?  That has not been revealed yet, and the only one close enough is Jorah and his love for Danni.

 

I also don't know what's going to happen with Dorn.  How does that fit back into everything?

[not on the rug]

If Lightbringer is forged through great sacrifice, whose love needs to be the catalyst?  Meaning, which two characters are deeply in love enough to create that sacrifice?  That has not been revealed yet, and the only one close enough is Jorah and his love for Danni.

 

I also don't know what's going to happen with Dorn.  How does that fit back into everything?

Oh my god... you just broke my brain.  I may be on to something.

 

So they made a point of having the scene last season where Dany pins Tyrion.  In that scene she talks about how she just sent away Daario Naharis.  "Do you know what frightens me?  I said farewell to a man who loves me, a man I thought I cared for, and I felt nothing."  

 

Now remember the scene when she send Jorah away to find a cure for his grayscale.  "I banished you twice...you came back twice..."  then he shows her the grayscale.  you can see her heart break and her voice trembles when she asks if there is a cure. she is fighting back tears the entire scene.   he confesses his love.  she commands him to find a cure and then return to her.  as she literally starts crying she says "when i take the seven kingdoms, i need you by my side."  

 

very stark contrast to how she sent Daario away.  he loves her and she loves him. that is why his betrayal (spying) cut her so deeply.  she was not angry, she was hurt and scorned

 

the third time she "sends him away" may be when she (or perhaps jon or jamie) plunges the sword in to his chest.  he's totally the guy who would take one for the team too.  

 

Dorne...

the last we saw, ellaria sand and her daughters (the sand snakes) were meeting with varys and olenna tyrell.  obviously they are all going to align forces and work together to go after cersei and the lannisters.  i'm not sure exactly where or how though.  we know from this season's trailer that dany will split her armies and she and the dothracki and her dragons will fight in one place while the unsullied army will attack at casterly rock.  i'm not sure what the sand snakes have planned though or what the martell army will be doing.  

 

here is something i thought of this week.  so, euron greyjoy promises cersei a gift.  what could cersei want? what does cersei always want?  revenge.  i wonder if he captures one or many of the sand snakes and brings them to cersei as his gift.  They killed her sweet daughter after all.  maybe he captures olenna tyrell and varys too?  who knows