What deer hunters want versus biology

[Bucksnbows]

Let's face it, deer hunters want both huge numbers of deer roaming the state and big bucks.  Who wouldn't?  But the simple reality is that having your cake and eating it too can't happen when it comes to deer hunters' desires.  How many times have we read on forums like this or others things like, "the state only cares about money", or "the state doesn't care about deer or deer hunters at all", or "they won't stop until there are no more deer left" or whatever your favorite gripe is.  Unfortunately, these comments are from ill-informed hunters that have no idea how or why deer are managed in a state like NJ.  They don't like it when they are told the reasons behind deer management.  And it's not just NJ, but in PA they literally ran the deer biologist responsible for that state's overall plan out of the state.  Since then, many sportsman's groups have sued the PA Game Commission over the changes over there in a vain attempt to go back to high deer densities to appease hunters who think more must be better.

 

Count me as someone that wishes NJ would do a better job of outreach to deer hunters to explain their management reasoning.  I happen to know it, but only because I have worked closely with their staff.  I've complained at times about their need to be more transparent, but they just shrug and say it won't matter and often point to PA as an example.  Maybe they are right.  So how do we that understand both the science (biology, healthy forests, impact on plant and other animals, etc.) educate our peers?  Can it be done?  Or is it nothing more than a waste of time?

[CJ3a]

Can cannot see haw more eduction on the matter would be a waste of time or money.

[BowhunterNJ]

While I agree that deer management is essential, I do think their regulations could use revision, especially on public lands.  I can't see how unlimited antlerless on heavily hunted properties is "good" for the environment or hunting opportunities, while the more problematic and high deer density areas go relatively unhunted (but need that type of aggressive management).  A lot of PA hunters are still in the "no doe hunting" camp, perhaps from the older timers passing on that mentality.  I can recall when my grandfather hunted growing up in PA back in the early 1900s, he was lucky to SEE a deer, nevermind get one.  Obviously the whitetails rebounded incredibly since then, so it's a different world now and the management goals and approaches should reflect the times.  On the same token, they need to reflect more specific areas and consider hunting pressure as well.  IMO, simply having public/state/WMA specific regulations (more stringent, even shorter seasons) would go a long way to maintaining good hunting opportunities while not virtually decimating herds in some areas (especially in the long unlimited antlerless permit shotgun seasons).

[Haskell_Hunter]

I'm all for management that is soundly based on science with the primary objective being a strong and healthy ecosystems. But only smart people would recognize the long-term benefits of that. And since you can't fix stupid, a certain portion of the hunting population, like any other population, wouldn't really care. Education curbs ignorance, but it doesn't cure it.

[BHC]

I come to accept the fact the big herds from years past will never be back, but like Matt said the current system they have in place needs to be re-worked

[Bucksnbows]

I come to accept the fact the big herds from years past will never be back, but like Matt said the current system they have in place needs to be re-worked

 

I come from a different time, I guess.  I remember before the herd was big and it was rare just to see a single doe up north, then watched it grow to levels far too high to have healthy woods, and now see it back to where it probably should be for most areas.  We likely have too few on many public lands areas and too many in the more urbanized/suburbanized areas where legal hunting is tough or nonexistent.  

 

I've heard many say that public lands limits should be reduced, but there is no way I can see to police that.  I think hunters would kill the same number of deer and just phone in "private" land when they check in a public land deer.  Enforcement would be a joke, but I understand why many feel the need to separate private from public.  Either way, I think the Division is beginning to see that the numbers where the majority of hunters hunt are lower than carrying capacity while other areas within those same zones remain too high.  What they will come up with if anything is what will be important.    

[NJBowman]

Bucksnbows You are right that the general hunting public will never understand the states management reason that's because they want it that way. In fact the chief deer biologist has said that unless you posses a biology degree you do not know what you are talking about basically saying hunters know nothing. Well through the qdma I am friends with some of the best deer biologists in the country and they value hunters input because they are the eyes and ears for their states game dept. Yes NJ has accomplished their goals.

They have wiped out the deer herd and any chance of a quality hunt in NJ on PUBLIC land. All While still having a problem on private and municipal land because of no hunter access. Maybe they should push like we are(UBNJ) to get a bill written and passed that would require any county or municipality to have a deer management plan in effect before open space funding is granted to them, no more lets preserve this land but first thing we do is close it to hunting.

I understand that they saved a lot money by the call in check system but on the flip side their data is non existent, by that I mean they have instant harvest numbers but nothing else. They have no way of knowing if the 8 point I checked in is 1.5, 2.5 or 4.5 yrs old, at least when they had check stations they would visit them at random and get that information. So when the head cheese makes a statement that APR's don't work how do they know that? They say they do not see an older age class of buck. All they know is less bucks are being checked in those zones, I would like to know how they can get the age of a deer over the phone?? They can't so don't make it like all hunters are idiots and say something doesn't work without solid proof from the field.

let's face it they do not give a rats butt about the hunters or a quality hunt. They have been told reduce the amount of deer/human conflicts by any means necessary and they have done that around any public hunting ground. I drive to work down Ely Harmony Rd which runs through Turkey Swamp WMA. I am on that road at 5am everyday. The last time I saw a deer cross that road was August, so yeah I see why we need unlimited antlerless in zone 16.

If this keeps up they wont have to worry because there wont be enough license sold to sustain the division. At our booth at the deer classic I had 10 different gentlemen tell me they did not buy a bow license in NJ last year and do not plan on buying one this year. They are going to PA, MD and the Midwest for their money. If the division doesn't become more hunter friendly and try to return a quality hunt on public land the hunters wont care enough to defend hunting in NJ and the antis will have their way.

I agree we do not need the giant herds like years ago, but a hunter in NJ who pays good money to hunt should at least be able to have a chance to harvest or at least see a deer in 4 days of hunting on a wma or other public ground. if not they will spend their money on a better product elsewhere. The division needs to keep that in mind as well. None of this is directed towards you, please don't think that. You just gave me a chance to respond to the tons of emails I get on this subject. Thanks

[LittleM]

I have no issues with deer management.  What I have issues with is the permit system.  It has less to do with management and more to do with fee collection. That's the simple truth.  And I hear it from some of the Division folks as well as just us hunters.  And I get some of the reason why:  Legislature control over license fees versus Division Control in setting up the permit system.  But its still BS....................

[number1goosehunter]

I think the deer hunters should try something new police your self's. I read on this forum and others  about how many deer they have harvested in a given season and I need another for the freezer, also I read about how much they  spend for permits well I do not think there are people at the lic. agent holding a gun to there head making them buy multiply permits. 

[Rusty]

I doubt the majority of hunters would take the time to listen to any explanations about why deer are managed the way that they are.  We have become a selfish society where people care about themselves and very little else, the Me Generation. 

 

What's the best way to educate the hunting public about not being a bunch of self centered selfish cry babies???  Good question.  How do we change today's society???

[Rusty]

On a side note, if I remember hearing correctly, last year there were only 37,000 license sold in NJ.  That's 0.4% of the population.  Should the State really be catering to such a minority when it comes to how deer are managed when there are so many other stake holders that far outnumber us? 

 

And yes I know the amount of crap I'm about to get for that.       I'm playing devil's advocate for the sake of argument.  

 

Hunters are alway crying that it's our license fees that run deer management, so we should be the main benefactors of the management strategies.  But how much money do those 37,000 licenses really generate?  The 3 hunters in my household spent an average of $90. each on licenses last year (bow and 1 extended permit w/ buck tag).  So if the average hunter spends $100. on license fees, that's only $3,700,000.  Let's round that up to $4 million.  That's not a whole lot of money.

[Rusty]

On a side side note.  

 

Remembering back to my wildlife management classes at Rutgers.  (Back when you had to walk to school . . . . bare foot . . . . in the snow . . . . uphill . . . . . . both ways)

We were taught that in a democratic society like ours, wildlife management is 5% working with wildlife and 95% dealing with people.  The biological answers to most problems are pretty simple, but implementing them in a society like ours is next to impossible.  

[BHC]

I was born and raised in Lodi (Bergen County) growing up there the only deer we saw was on cars of the town hunters and there was many of us, two years before moving out reports of deer started to spread.....I moved out 5 years ago and now live in Southern Warren County, I continue to hunt in Montague. My friends who hunt during the shotgun week are from the Lodi/Saddle Brook area, they tell me they see many deer these days, I work in Rahway/Woodbridge and I see more deer near work then I do in Warren County.

 

I know, like everyone here that the deer herd in our traditional hunting areas are down, but in the more urban areas are up.

 

I hunt zone 4, very little private lands the herd is way down from what it was, but bigger bucks I accept this, but this one area the state can cut back and revised things, yet they continue to add days to this zone. I asked the lady who is in charge of the NJ deer herd, and asked about this, and also if antler restrictions could be done on a so-called 3, 4, or 5 year test project, here reply was flat out "NO", why I asked? It will not work in this zone, plus this zone is all public land which attracts many non resident hunters (aka $$$$) But I told her right over the river in PA is the same land as in zone 4 (federal lands) and PA started antler restrictions on those lands and it's working.....Well she quickly ignored me.....When faced with facts from a person they think doesn't see the writing on the wall

people tend to walk away, also I know she is a mere puppet of the system, also I blame the dinosaurs of the game council

[BHC]

I love hearing hunters "I'm going on doe patrol, I need more meat I only shot 6 so far, and my friend and neighbor needs and want meat" cry me a river tell them to get off their butts and hunt themselves.....I really think hunters get jealous hearing/reading about others killing deer, so they need to shoot more, it's like a drug.

 

I just completed my 34th year of hunting, the most deer I shot in a given season was 3, I kept all three, of course I gave some out to friends/family if they asked for it but I never once and I will never go out to kill a deer cause someone wanted a deer for themselves.

 

The last deer I shot was a doe, this was three years ago, and I will admit I regretted it, that was the first doe I shot in 8 yrs......My kids where happy as they love venison as much I do. 

 

Just because the state says hunters can kill as many deer as they like or a "X" amount doesn't mean they have too, learn to police yourself

[Bucksnbows]

Some good discussions so far.  Some I agree with and others not.  I have had much different reactions with Carol Stanko than some of you have according to your mentioning her.  But she and I worked together on a healthy forest white paper and deer were the # 1 impact on healthy forests in NJ.  She trusts my knowledge about browse pressure which is the main focus of deer management here in NJ (and in many other states).  But there are many other factors that play into management including history which is why it was impossible, for example, to eliminate driving deer on the Monday of 6 Day (the Federation had fits and wouldn't agree because of the many clubs in the southern area of the state).  That was a recent suggestion that was voted down by the Game Council last fall for consideration in the future.

 

I must say that the comments about PA being a better deer state than NJ is something I used to believe, but am quickly becoming disillusioned about.  I have hunted the same private land in that state since about '78.  The first 25 or so years the herds were huge and a slow day meant "only" seeing 30 deer and most bucks shot were 1.5 years old.  We averaged 5-7 bucks the first two days of the season before Gary Alt made the major changes to PA's herds.  Now since the big changes to herd size and ARs, I see maybe 4 deer in a full day on stand and typically no legal bucks.  However, we have shot bigger bucks when someone does see one these days, but when you have 12 or more hunters shooting an average of less than 1 buck per year combined, that's not the hunting experience most of our camp wants.  And lately we are seeing some of our guys leaving PA behind to hunt NJ or NY instead to have an opportunity to shoot at least one deer per year. We used to hunt PA because there were largely very few deer in northern NJ where we live and grew up.  Now that dynamic has flip flopped.