QDM encouragement

[Live to Hunt]

Any of these things have a tough road in NJ because we have such long seasons, and liberal bag limits. APR's are okay, in the absence of anything else but what we need is to reduce the number of antlered deer tags to 1, or 2 at most, and let people kill what ever they want, at least for the first tag. My brother has killed many big bucks, including his heaviest buck this year, and his biggest rack buck this year (2 different animals) yet the spike he killed in Maine was probably his most special buck all year, and it showed. He was so excited about that buck it was unreal. People hunt for different reason and decide to kill deer for different reasons. What is special to you might not be a special deer for them, and vice versa. APR's can be detrimental in that regard but until NJ does something about the insanely long seasons, 6 buck tags and basically no limits on does (and button bucks), APR's are the best we have.  Well said.

[JHbowhunter]

 I sort of cringe when I hear the old adage "if you pass them up, it's only going to get shot by someone else".     I hunt in one of the most pressured parts of the state in z5... Not far from Whittingham, and the private land all around gets hit real hard during bow and all the various shotgun and muzzy seasons.   I have seen living proof for as long as I have lived here since 2002, that a buck I pass up can be seen next season.  I see this every year.  They are so dumb ages 1.5 and 2.5 there really is no challenge,  and by age 3.5  are still "killable" if you put time in , but they really start getting smarter than even the smartest doe around this age.  By age 4.5 - nearly impossible to kill but that's what makes it fun.  

 

The bottom line with "if I don't kill it the neighbor's will" only has one absolute. If YOU kill it your neighbor's won't, and it won't be a year older and significantly larger next season. Believe it or not - from the moment you kill it, it stops growing and won't get any older.  There is zero chance to grow if you kill it, but there is always a chance it might if you let it go. Maybe he will walk by someone with similar or even higher standards, or walk by a really crappy hunter?

[Haskell_Hunter]

I am not gonna look at one "failing" deer zone in a state that really doesn't care about wildlife, and say QDM doesn't work with a blanket statement. And you say it's one big herd of forks? That's an age class issue, it has nothing to do with QDM. And I disagree with you that it doesn't make you a better hunter. Hogwash? I guess you are right, it's not like it's one of the biggest outdoor conservation groups, next to NWTF, and Ducks Unlimited. Oh wait, it's right next to them. So tell me again, hogwash?

 

Your refusal to look at the data speaks volumes.

 

Come hunt with me in Zone 3, a QDM zone.  That is my experience with QDM.

[Live to Hunt]

Where the hell did you get this statistic? If there’s any truth to it, it’s because people aren’t trying to kill big deer because they don’t think they can. They go out, sit their butt down and shoot the first thing with bones growing out of its head they see.

I looked for the article but, I can not find it at this moment so I guess you can say I pulled it from my arse but, there are plenty of articles that talk about just how difficult it is to kill a buck 150 or better. 

[Thunderchicken]

I agree with some of the statements above. Bottom line is you've got to limit the number of bucks killed. We are to liberal with tags. I would never tell anybody what to shoot (To each their own), but lets scale the amount of antlered deer back and ends this unlimited antlerless nonsense... Just my 2 cents!

[TDietz]

I looked for the article but, I can not find it at this moment so I guess you can say I pulled it from my arse but, there are plenty of articles that talk about just how difficult it is to kill a buck 150 or better. 

 

years ago Dr James Kroll stated that given a chance to live out his life, (max out on antler size), the average buck, I think it was for all of North America, will grow 135 inches of antler

 

Gene Wensel toured around the country back in the 80's with a trailer load of giant bucks he had collected and said that you have think of B&C bucks as being "freaks of nature", giving the example of Wilt Chamberlain and other large people as not being true representatives of the human race.

 

I think a lot of bucks where I hunt are maxing out at around 115, which makes it tough because it's possible for a 2.5 to grow that much antler....

 

just throwing out some observations

[njdeerhunter54]

As someone else stated all properties in this state are not created equal. There are some areas that can produce relatively big bucks , certainly not 200" but 150' class bucks for sure. With the use of trail cameras we can now see what kind of bucks roam the area we are hunting ! I try to hold out for the biggest buck that I get pictures of. I still have not managed to get 150" class buck on the ground and have got very few pics if any of that class.  If there are no huge bucks on your property you can't kill a huge buck . That said ,if you shoot the first antlered buck that walks by you are not going to kill the big one that is following him. If we pass on 1.5 year old bucks I feel that one in ten will survive the season in my area. as the bucks get older they get smarter so with 2.5 year olds maybe one in five will survive and this percentage of survivors goes up the older they get ! We can't do anything about vehicle kills or farmer depredation permits ,but we as hunters can and have made the age class of bucks older in this state. I believe there are a lot more 2.5 -3.5 year bolds killed now than twenty years ago. If we restricted everyone to three antlered bucks per year and only put an end to the February season I think that we would see a big improvement in mature buck numbers. I hunt mostly Hunterdon County which has some very good habitat . There are other parts of the state with poor habitat that will never grow large bucks , but age means a lot. If you kill a young buck he will never meet full potential, even if 120" is his full potential !

[stratocaster]

Where the hell did you get this statistic? If there’s any truth to it, it’s because people aren’t trying to kill big deer because they don’t think they can. They go out, sit their butt down and shoot the first thing with bones growing out of its head they see.

So, your response just begs for more questions because it is just rhetoric not backed up with any stats or logic.  I'm not trying to be malevolent or denigrate you but your statement just doesn't make any sense.

 

If you are of the mind that a hunter does not want to try kill a big buck by shooting a small buck that would be the same as saying a quarterback doesn't think he can win the game so he chooses not to throw a pass downfield but just run the ball for a few yards.  It seems a generalization.  Thousands of us go into the woods year after year.  Lots of us don't shoot anything. Some of us shoot the first buck they see but a lot pass on young bucks with hope that they will grow into a bigger buck or that a bigger buck will come along. 

 

 If you look at just the bucks that are recorded in the outstanding deer program which is all we have to go by, since other bucks that might qualify are not entered, then the stats speak for themselves. Out of 19889 bucks taken in 16-17 only 24 scored 124 or higher.  So that's .0011 or 1/1000th of the total antlered buck harvest.  Do you really believe if everyone passed on the smaller bucks then we would all harvest a much bigger buck "because we think we can"? 

 

Every year the classic has the same number plus or minus 5 bucks.   Now, you and others can slam the classic as a sham but those bucks are scored by the book, so unless there are another 24 bucks or so that are killed that score more than 125 that are not entered then the ratio goes to .002 or about 1 per every 375 bucks killed.  The stats just don't support your stance, respectfully.

[tcook8296]

 

Every year the classic has the same number plus or minus 5 bucks.   Now, you and others can slam the classic as a sham but those bucks are scored by the book, so unless there are another 24 bucks or so that are killed that score more than 125 that are not entered then the ratio goes to .002 or about 1 per every 375 bucks killed.  The stats just don't support your stance, respectfully.

I would bet there are a lot more big deer that are never entered into the classic or posted online than people think.

[dlist777]

I got access to a new property this year.  It looked promising.  Then, I found out the farmer next door practices QDM (Quash Deer at Midnight).  Anytime I hunt mornings I walk into the property in the dark to what sounds like the opening sequence of Saving Private Ryan.  Sucks.  I won't be hunting that property anymore. 

[Rusty]

I would bet there are a lot more big deer that are never entered into the classic or posted online than people think.

 

You are correct tcook, I've measured a few of them for guys that want their kills kept quiet.  

[DV1]

So, your response just begs for more questions because it is just rhetoric not backed up with any stats or logic.  I'm not trying to be malevolent or denigrate you but your statement just doesn't make any sense.

 

I think you guy's are actually supporting each other's point. You are correct, there is a very small chance of a hunter killing a big buck, not only in NJ, but anywhere. Why is that? Pure odds; there are far more hunters than there are big bucks. 

What he is saying is that if people didn't just go out to kill the first antlered buck they see, there would be more big bucks, so the odds would increase a little in the hunters favor.

You say location, location, location, again, that's great advice because some locations have more, older, larger antlered deer than others. He is saying we can do things to improve our location here in NJ. 

 

I don't see any conflict in your two points. 

[stratocaster]

I think you guy's are actually supporting each other's point. You are correct, there is a very small chance of a hunter killing a big buck, not only in NJ, but anywhere. Why is that? Pure odds; there are far more hunters than there are big bucks. 

What he is saying is that if people didn't just go out to kill the first antlered buck they see, there would be more big bucks, so the odds would increase a little in the hunters favor.

You say location, location, location, again, that's great advice because some locations have more, older, larger antlered deer than others. He is saying we can do things to improve our location here in NJ. 

 

I don't see any conflict in your two points. 

Yes DV1.  I guess the slight difference is that I'm more realistic and he's more optimistic at least when it comes to NJ. 

[mfried]

Chris Bracket had some really interesting thoughts on QDM, link to his wikipedia.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Brackett

Edited November 27, 2017 by mfried

[Bergenguy]

Interesting.  I'm not really much of a deer hunter, but I was interested to see your post and what was up with QDM as a few properties near my parents in NYS have fancy "QDM" signs up next to their posted signs.  QDM in theory sounds pretty good, but as far as I can tell QDM means you let the small ones grow into big ones on your property.. then trespass a few properties over and shoot the small ones there to fill your freezer.  Like most things, the theory is great but something seems to get lost in the implementation.