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Everything sounds great until you get a local farmer nearby shooting every deer in sight at night on a depradation permit. I have a farmer that has been shooting deer at night for months now. He is a reaL piece of work and I feel he is purposely targeting every buck he can with the spot light. Ive seen 3 years of effort completely ruined. The same guys making a killing off of deer corn are out slaughtering the herd while you are sleeping.

I have neighbors that continually drop bait piles on the property line. They shoot every 1.5 year old 8 point that walks off the property. 

The state does not care about quality deer. They care about dead deer. 

I will continue my food plots and habitat improvements and passing young bucks focusing on trying to attract a late season shooter that has survived the carnage now that the farmers permit has expired Nov 15th. Imagine shooting all the wandering bucks at night during the rut. 

I can tell you after what Ive seen 1st hand, I will never shoot another doe on my farm. 

I have only hunted my farm 2 morning sits this year. Usually, I have several 3.5 + bucks around. 

In the past, I have been able to harvest one or 2 if Im lucky in one season. 

As far as Im concerned, the farm will not be hunted unless a 3 year old + appears on camera.  

Ive just about thrown in the towel deer hunting in Nj. 

6 month long hunting seasons, uimited antlerless, 6 buck tags,  neighbors hunting habits and farmers shooting deer for months at night, small parcels of land with rampant thievery and trespassing (in certain areas)it makes it real difficult for a guy to put in the effort, time and money it takes to grow a decent buck in Nj. 

Ive hunted Illinois several times this year. Id rather focus my time in an area that I actually have a chance at killing a repectable whitetail, spend quality time in the tree and get away from the Nj nonsense. 

I much prefer 4 or 5 trips out west than to deal with the nonsense here at home. 

I will continue doing what Im doing, but I feel there are too many things out of your control to try and grow big deer in Nj. 

 

Happy Thanksgiving and good luck out there in the field

TC

Edited by tcook8296

www.liftxrentals.com

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QDM is a subject that will get a big mix of comments. Everyone has their own opinion, needs and wants with deer hunting.

 

  To me i'm all for it !!! Nothing better than taking a mature buck in this state. But i have nothing against people taking what ever walks out to them as long as it don't go to waste. I don't care for someone that has to shoot a buck of any size to just fill their tag. Plenty of does out there if meat is wanted.

 

  I know it is tough to pass the nice 1.5-2.5 year old bucks for most people but i will do my part and pass them. For one thing I know is if I shoot those bucks they will not have a chance to live another year. Every buck I pass and everyone else that passes, there will be that many more for someones first or biggest ever.  

 

  Pass up what you can cause you never know what is coming up the trail behind them!!!!!!!

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Look at the NJ state for Zone 3.  Then tell me that over the past decade it work.  It does not the way NJ has implemented it.  The proof is in the harvest numbers.  Take a look at the harvest #'s for zone 3.  Go ahead.  They decline each year.  The herd is a bunch of forks.

 

QDM has nothing to do with being a better hunter.  That is complete hogwash.

 

Look at NJ data.  Look at that data.  I hunt that zone.  It does not work at all.  Come hunt Zone 3 with me.  No one ever does.  Not a single person is a decade has taken up the offer.  Why?  Because QDM does not work, and hunters know it.

I am not gonna look at one "failing" deer zone in a state that really doesn't care about wildlife, and say QDM doesn't work with a blanket statement. And you say it's one big herd of forks? That's an age class issue, it has nothing to do with QDM. And I disagree with you that it doesn't make you a better hunter. Hogwash? I guess you are right, it's not like it's one of the biggest outdoor conservation groups, next to NWTF, and Ducks Unlimited. Oh wait, it's right next to them. So tell me again, hogwash?

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Not all parts of NJ are created equal. Sure you might get a few giants off of a property every few years with so called QDM, but you will never convince the hunting public at large that it works if the results are not seen everywhere. The very rules of the state prevent most of it. It a free for all in the winter seasons. Get annoyed at the farmers too. They will tell you NO!.... you can't hunt, but will sell you as many bags of corn you'd want to kill what they call "those crop eating bastards!"

I ask why November 15 is the closing date for farm permits? It it so old farmer Joe can go a buck huntin' and get to keep one? Kind of weird that the deer stop "eating him out of house and home" after that date. I agree with tcook. The shoot them all attitudes of a lot of guys and the state deer mismanagement laws will never allow truly big bucks to roam. Good luck in your quest.

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"it's not like it's one of the biggest outdoor conservation groups, next to NWTF, and Ducks Unlimited"

 

I'm not convinced that these groups are nothing more than "good old boys" clubs despite all of their claims

 

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/570564993

 

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/135643799

 

https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=16310

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Maybe if all you guys are seeing is forks and baskets you aren't as good as you think you are!

Maybe if you had a ounce of self control to pass on forks and baskets you'd have a tag for a good buck!

Maybe if you need to just fill the freezer you could shoot does!

Maybe if you left your bait pile you'd actually see a mature deer!

Just maybe....

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I started hunting in '67, yup, half-century ago, and I've seen a huge improvement in the age class structure of the bucks, and buck to doe ratio, in my neck of the woods, mainly the Pohatcong and Musconetcong drainages, which by themselves look a lot like mini Iowas. All this in spite of this dopey state and it's retarded deer program. Why did somebody in Fish and Game think it would be a good idea to implement point restrictions in the worst habitat???? We hunters that want see a better deer herd have to continue to do it on our own in a type of grass roots movement.

 

NJ is never going to be a big buck mecca, so shoot what you want, pass up what you want, be SATISFIED with what you shoot, don't be a buck hog just because it's legal. 

Have a Happy Thanksgiving!!

without me, my rifle is nothing

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Shoot what you want Have fun. If your looking to shoot bigger bucks hunt a state where there are more bigger bucks but, let me just give you a little statistic.  LESS THEN 1% OF ALL HUNTERS WILL EVER KILL A DEER THAT SCORES IN 150 CLASS OR ABOVE. If you want those odds to increase you have to hunt where the possibility is more likely.  I always say location location location. 

🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈

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Honestly I was a little hesitant to open this because I thought you were going to preach qdm the way I used to.

 

Glad to see you didn't. You're right...its a choice. Can't shove it down anyones throat, can only try to encourage and educate those that are interested. AND, it has to be for the right reasons. Sadly I think some or even most qdm preaching has been done because of what Lunatic said, selfish reasons.

 

To be perfectly honest, I used to struggle with the idea that hunters wouldn't pass young bucks. It was hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that someone had no desire to let a buck grow up into a more worthy adversary. BUT, as I met more "casual" hunters I started to understand. The last few years now I finally understand it. I dont care what anyone else shoots anymore. I can only control what I shoot. Have fun and be responsible, that's all I ask.

 

I now understand goals can change from season to season or property to property and person to person. There are people out there with very limited time or knowledge or they simply have different reasons behind why they hunt. Who is to decide what they should or shouldn't shoot? Not me.

 

 

And I used to worry about the number of mature bucks because I didn't see them as often. Now I've learned....don't worry about the number of mature bucks. They take care of themselves. lol Keep passing what you're passing as long as you're happy. The mature bucks are out there and some are huge (but remember not all of them are that big antler wise). In fact, the more I learn about mature bucks, the more often I see them. The more I see them, the more I've learned that there will always be plenty of solid bucks and at least one or two giants around every year because most hunters are lazy and live in a little box of widely accepted hunting tactics. Big bucks rarely fall to the lazy hunter. They fall to the guy that scouts and observes year round, hunts smart and hard and makes effort not excuses. Remember it's a lot easier to make excuses than it is to legitimately crawl and wade 2 miles into a swamp every day for that one fleeting chance at a giant. You might only see him once or twice in an entire season. You might even blow the shot. That's a lot of work for no kind of guarantee. So most people don't try that hard and don't even know these deer exist. 

 

 

Judging by scars and "stuff", I believe the majority of old bucks are the ones that have been wounded by hunters a time or two when they were younger. Get hit with an arrow or slug and I bet you learn pretty fast to avoid people at all costs. So someone has to shoot at the younger ones to wisen them up. lol

 

In any case....

 

Shoot (and eat) what makes YOU truly happy as long as its responsible for the resource. 

 

Good luck. Happy Thanksgiving.

“I have always tempered my killing with respect for the game pursued. I see the animal not only as a target, but as a living creature with more freedom than I will ever have. I take that life if I can, with regret as well as joy, and with the sure knowledge that nature’s way of fang and claw and starvation are a far crueler fate than I bestow.” – Fred Bear

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I interpret what you are saying as passing a young deer means it will die. As in, if you don’t shoot it, someone else will. But is that a guarantee? I’d argue it isn’t. I bet you would too.

 

 

There is only one sure thing when it comes to letting a buck walk. When you let him walk he has a chance to grow older. When you take him out there is absolutely positively no chance of him getting any older

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Maybe if all you guys are seeing is forks and baskets you aren't as good as you think you are!

Maybe if you had a ounce of self control to pass on forks and baskets you'd have a tag for a good buck!

Maybe if you need to just fill the freezer you could shoot does!

Maybe if you left your bait pile you'd actually see a mature deer!

Just maybe....

 

 

You must be a pro staffer :shock:

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Good luck in this state. The best thing to do is hunt smarter. Set your property up to hold deer that your neighbors bump out by hunting sloppy. And let the young ones walk. Don’t worry about the neighbor shooting them. I have the same deer year after year so in my observations the neighbors aren’t doing as much damage as we might think. I don’t care if they shoot a spike. That just means they have no tag to shoot one of the good ones.

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Shoot what you want Have fun. If your looking to shoot bigger bucks hunt a state where there are more bigger bucks but, let me just give you a little statistic.  LESS THEN 1% OF ALL HUNTERS WILL EVER KILL A DEER THAT SCORES IN 150 CLASS OR ABOVE. If you want those odds to increase you have to hunt where the possibility is more likely.  I always say location location location.

 

Where the hell did you get this statistic? If there’s any truth to it, it’s because people aren’t trying to kill big deer because they don’t think they can. They go out, sit their butt down and shoot the first thing with bones growing out of its head they see.

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Many people are confusing a few different issues here. First, Quality Deer Management is not Trophy Deer Management. While QDM practices often result in more deer with trophy racks, it's goal is not to produce only deer with trophy racks. And Antler Point Restrictions are just one tool some deer managers use to achieve QDM.

 

QDM is a practice to bring the deer herd into balance by killing enough females to keep the doe to buck ratio close to 1:1, and protect enough yearling bucks to have a good representation of older age classes in the herd. There are a few ways to protect yearling bucks, APR's being one of them. 

 

APR's have been a controversial topic in NJ, mostly because some years back, 2 people from the Division went around saying there was evidence the program, where implemented in South Jersey, was a failure. 

 

You can look at the data and judge for yourself, but the cliff notes are this: in the zones in SW NJ where APR's where implemented in 2000, by the 2009 season, the total number of 2.5 yr old bucks taken by hunters increased marginally, something like 8 percent and the number of 3.5 yr old bucks taken each year almost doubled. Take into account that this increase in older age class bucks being taken, and therefore, existing in the herd, occurred at the same time period drastic herd reduction measures (longer seasons, EAB, increased bag limits) were implemented, and the overall deer herd was reduced by almost half. 

 

So, during a period of time when the total number of deer available was cut in half, the total number of older age class bucks increased, significantly in the case of 3.5 yr olds. How can this be classified as a failure? You would have to ask those 2 individuals who claimed such, but it seems they were hanging their hat on the fact that fewer yearling bucks were killed, and fewer bucks ended up in the total numbers overall. But, THAT IS THE GOAL OF QDM, and APR's as a tool of QDM; to reduce the number of yearling bucks killed so more, older age class bucks exist in the herd. 

 

Here is the report, if you care to read it. http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/pdf/2010/apr_data_summary10.pdf

 

Something that puzzles me is often the reasons people say APR's don't work is, as stated in this thread, you can't control the genetics in the herd, and the other big one is because they will cause high-grading. Well friends, those two are mutually exclusive. High-grading presumes you will negatively impact the geneitcs of the herd with APR's...APR's that the same people say will not work because...wait for it...you can't control the genetics of a wild deer herd. All that would only matter if we were doing TDM in NJ anyway, and we are not. QDM's goal is proper male to female ratios and we distributed, and represented, age classes of males (regardless of antler size), in the herd. Not necessarily big antlers but bigger antlers are often the result of that.

 

Any of these things have a tough road in NJ because we have such long seasons, and liberal bag limits. APR's are okay, in the absence of anything else but what we need is to reduce the number of antlered deer tags to 1, or 2 at most, and let people kill what ever they want, at least for the first tag. My brother has killed many big bucks, including his heaviest buck this year, and his biggest rack buck this year (2 different animals) yet the spike he killed in Maine was probably his most special buck all year, and it showed. He was so excited about that buck it was unreal. People hunt for different reason and decide to kill deer for different reasons. What is special to you might not be a special deer for them, and vice versa. APR's can be detrimental in that regard but until NJ does something about the insanely long seasons, 6 buck tags and basically no limits on does (and button bucks), APR's are the best we have.

 

Happy Thanksgiving.

Edited by DV1

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation UNDER GOD, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

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